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Robert

Will the CPL have a Chivas?

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After all the hype of "the Canadian Premier League, being a league for Canadians, by Canadians," will there be at least one Chivas-like team in this league?

Club Deportivo Guadalajara, often simply known as Guadalajara, and most commonly known as Chivas, is a Mexican professional football club based in Guadalajara, Jalisco. Guadalajara is one of the ten founding members of the Mexican First Division and is one of only two teams that have never been relegated to the second-tier division.

Guadalajara is the only top-flight football club in Mexico to exclusively field Mexican players as a signing policy. The team has constantly emphasized home-grown players and has been the launching pad of many internationally successful players, including Omar Bravo, Javier Hernández, Carlos Vela, and Marco Fabián.

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CanPL Chivas USA should be affiliated to, like, the New York Cosmos and be as cartoonishly American as possible. I want blonde women in skimpy stars and stripes firing handguns in the air while fighters zoom low overhead and rap music shrieks over the PA before every match.

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43 minutes ago, Robert said:

After all the hype of "the Canadian Premier League, being a league for Canadians, by Canadians," will there be at least one Chivas-like team in this league?

Club Deportivo Guadalajara, often simply known as Guadalajara, and most commonly known as Chivas, is a Mexican professional football club based in Guadalajara, Jalisco. Guadalajara is one of the ten founding members of the Mexican First Division and is one of only two teams that have never been relegated to the second-tier division.

Guadalajara is the only top-flight football club in Mexico to exclusively field Mexican players as a signing policy. The team has constantly emphasized home-grown players and has been the launching pad of many internationally successful players, including Omar Bravo, Javier Hernández, Carlos Vela, and Marco Fabián.

I don’t think there will be a team that fields exclusively Canadians. But it terms of Homegrowns and Academy talent look no further than FC Edmonton. They have had a strong established academy for years. I believe over half of their signings so far are from their own academy. Jeff Paulus has stated that he believes he could build a great team using just Edmonton players, so obviously they have a coach who believes in local talent. As well, they just expanded their academy to include a “u-21” reserve team, making their pathway complete from the age of 14 to the first team. We probably won’t see the full effect of all these things quite yet, but i wouldn’t be surprised if down the road FC Edmonton does not have the maximum amount of internationals on their roster, instead using majority homegrown players.

Academy products signed so far: Sarkaria, Zebie B., Zebie A., Khabra 

Academy Products likely to be signed this year: Doe, Dukuly, James, Cunningham

FC Edmonton also has many young players who will likely sign in the future, most noteworthy being Prince Amanda. If you go to FC Edmonton’s Website you can look at their academy to find names of future players and highlights of past games.

Edited by BenFisk'sBiggestFan

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3 hours ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

I don’t think there will be a team that fields exclusively Canadians. But it terms of Homegrowns and Academy talent look no further than FC Edmonton. They have had a strong established academy for years. I believe over half of their signings so far are from their own academy. Jeff Paulus has stated that he believes he could build a great team using just Edmonton players, so obviously they have a coach who believes in local talent. As well, they just expanded their academy to include a “u-21” reserve team, making their pathway complete from the age of 14 to the first team. We probably won’t see the full effect of all these things quite yet, but i wouldn’t be surprised if down the road FC Edmonton does not have the maximum amount of internationals on their roster, instead using majority homegrown players.

Academy products signed so far: Sarkaria, Zebie B., Zebie A., Khabra 

Academy Products likely to be signed this year: Doe, Dukuly, James, Cunningham

FC Edmonton also has many young players who will likely sign in the future, most noteworthy being Prince Amanda. If you go to FC Edmonton’s Website you can look at their academy to find names of future players and highlights of past games.

I wonder how closely the CPL ratio will mirror that of the MLS? Will a league that claims to be "for Canadians, by Canadians" actually be at least 51% comprised of domestic Canadian players? 

MLS International Roster Slots

MLS International Roster Slots are an important piece of roster composition in Major League Soccer. MLS employs a variety of mechanisms to promote parity and domestic player development which include player entry drafts, expansion drafts, allocation drafts, weighted lotteries, and a limit on the number of international roster slots available for each club. The limit on the number of international roster slots makes each slot a valuable commodity for clubs to utilize through player signings or trades with other clubs.

The MLS roster rules for 2018 stated:

A total of 184 international roster spots are divided among the 23 clubs. These spots are tradable, such that some clubs may have more than eight and some clubs may have fewer than eight. There is no limit on the number of international roster spots on each club's roster. The remaining roster spots must be filled by domestic players.

For clubs based in the United States, a domestic player is either:

a U.S. citizen;

a permanent resident (green card holder); or

the holder of other special status (e.g., has been granted refugee or asylum status); or

a player who qualifies under the Homegrown International Rule.

For clubs based in Canada, a domestic player is either:

a Canadian citizen; or

the holder of certain other special status (e.g., has been granted refugee or asylum status); or

a player who qualifies under the Homegrown International Rule; or

a U.S. Domestic Player.

MLS clubs based in Canada are required to have a minimum of three Canadian Domestic Players on their rosters.

Homegrown International Rule: regardless of nationality, any player who meets the requirements to qualify as a Homegrown Player as a member of an MLS club academy, either in the U.S. or Canada, or has met similar requirements as a member of a Canadian Approved Youth Club, will count as a domestic player on both U.S. and Canadian club rosters provided that:

the player became a member of an MLS club academy, either in the U.S. or Canada, or a Canadian Approved Youth Club in the year prior to the year in which he turns 16; and

the player signs his first professional contract with MLS or an MLS club's USL affiliate.

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Quite honestly, I don't think there will be one. At least in year 1. 

If a club was pushing for that sort of philosophy, I feel like we would have heard about it by now. It would be something they were talking about around this time, because roster signings are occurring. 

We can already rule out a number of clubs (3 maybe?) who have signed internationals, leaving us with not many left. 

I don't think we'll have a Chivas.

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2 hours ago, Copes said:

Quite honestly, I don't think there will be one. At least in year 1. 

If a club was pushing for that sort of philosophy, I feel like we would have heard about it by now. It would be something they were talking about around this time, because roster signings are occurring. 

We can already rule out a number of clubs (3 maybe?) who have signed internationals, leaving us with not many left. 

I don't think we'll have a Chivas.

We’ve already heard that Pacific FC is going for an all-BC team, which would be more extreme than Chivas and closer to Athletic Bilbao.  

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7 hours ago, Robert said:

Who's going to play with the ball?😎

This response should be viewed as the written equivalent of a sympathy laugh. 20% of the Canadian population was born overseas rising to as high as 50% in some parts of the GTA and soccer skews towards that demographic and their children in terms of who participates (especially at the elite level) and also in spectator terms although not as heavily as in the past. Is it sensible to attempt something similar to the appeals to nativism that the Chivas, Athletic Bilbao and Real Sociedad policies on player signings revolve around in that environment when a big part of the appeal of soccer for a lot of people is that it is way more cosmopolitan, outward looking and global than something like the CFL?

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Is it sensible to attempt something similar to the appeals to nativism that the Chiva, Athletic Bilbao and Real Sociedad policies on player signings revolve around in that environment when a big part of the appeal of soccer for a lot of people is that it is way more cosmopolitan, outward looking and global than something like the CFL?

The CFL is a majority-foreign league whose coaches wander around in "Diversity Is Strength" hoodies, so if CanPL has to be more global than that...

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1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

This response should be viewed as the written equivalent of a sympathy laugh. 20% of the Canadian population was born overseas rising to as high as 50% in some parts of the GTA and soccer skews towards that demographic and their children in terms of who participates (especially at the elite level) and also in spectator terms although not as heavily as in the past. Is it sensible to attempt something similar to the appeals to nativism that the Chivas, Athletic Bilbao and Real Sociedad policies on player signings revolve around in that environment when a big part of the appeal of soccer for a lot of people is that it is way more cosmopolitan, outward looking and global than something like the CFL?

It will be interesting to see how many Canadian-born players will be in the starting line-ups for the first league match that each club plays?Are there 77 Canadian-born soccer players that are good enough to start in the CPL? Of course, there is no professional league in the world that is comprised of 100% domestic players. But I raise my question again, Who's going to play with the ball?😎

Are we going to see at least 51% Canadian-born players on the field, or are there going to be lots of Americans who weren't enough enough to make the MLS? After all, there must be 39 Canadians how can play soccer at the CPL level, right?

Edited by Robert

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Robert, based on info I have found on transfermarkt on the players signed so far...

Players listed as Canadian nationality and born in Canada: 19
Players listed as Canadian nationality, born outside of Canada: 7
Players without Canadian nationality: 9
Players not on transfermarkt or with no nationality listed on transfermarkt: 2 (Khabra and Sarkaria. Ohin as well, but in the article released on him recently they say he was born in Ghana, and trying to get his visa, so I've listed him as w/o Canadian nationality)

I'm not sure why you are fixating on Canadian born instead of just Canadian, but the percentages that I can come up with so far are (excluding the unknowns):

54% Canadian born
74% Canadian

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1 hour ago, Kent said:

Robert, based on info I have found on transfermarkt on the players signed so far...

Players listed as Canadian nationality and born in Canada: 19
Players listed as Canadian nationality, born outside of Canada: 7
Players without Canadian nationality: 9
Players not on transfermarkt or with no nationality listed on transfermarkt: 2 (Khabra and Sarkaria. Ohin as well, but in the article released on him recently they say he was born in Ghana, and trying to get his visa, so I've listed him as w/o Canadian nationality)

I'm not sure why you are fixating on Canadian born instead of just Canadian, but the percentages that I can come up with so far are (excluding the unknowns):

54% Canadian born
74% Canadian

It would be fantastic if 74% of the 77 players, in the starting line-ups for the first league match that each club plays, were Canadian players (players who are eligible to represent Canada in World Cup matches), which would mean that the CPL has created 57 professional starting positions for Canadian players. I guess that we will find out whether or not that 74% holds up in about 106 days from now. I would say anything over 51% would make this a league "for Canadians, by Canadians." For me, anything less than 51% would fall short of the "for Canadians, by Canadians" billing.

OUR MANIFESTO

To the world, it’s the beautiful game.
To us, it’s proving we belong.
In the neighbourhoods and cities
that make us who we are.
This is a league we can call our own.
For Canadians, by Canadians.
We’re on a journey out of the shadows
and back into the hearts of a nation.
That noise you hear is us moving in.
And we’re bringing the best
home grown talent
with us.
Players that bleed the same red as you.
Sworn to defend your home turf.
Playing for your loyalty.
Playing for respect.
Bonds will be forged.
Colours flown.
History will be written.
Rivalries born.
The stage is ours.
The journey has begun.
This is the Canadian Premier League.

Edited by Robert

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rumours 75% Canadian...

but the 6 Canadians on the field at the same time out of 11 players make the math a minimum of  > 50%...

Robert I thought your argument months ago was the CPL wasn't a Canadian league because it didn't have a team in Newfoundland (or was it PEI?).  Based on the MLS Final between teams from cities in Vermont and Montana last year...  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Premier_League

 

Players[edit]

Although foreign players and staff would be permitted by roster regulations, the intention of the league is to foster Canadian talent and develop Canadian coaches. The league will establish a quota of the minimum number of Canadians on each roster similar to American player requirements in Major League Soccer.[52] Although three Canadian teams compete in MLS (Toronto FC, Montreal Impact, and Vancouver Whitecaps FC) there are currently no such roster requirements for Canadian players, although CSA president Victor Montagliani had previously stated that changes to these rules were imminent.[53] Following the release of initial league details, it was rumoured that 75% of all players on each roster would be required to be Canadian.[54]

In July 2018, Clanachan told The Hamilton Spectator that the league will have a salary cap, rosters of 23 to 25 players. The domestic player requirement will be that half the roster has to be Canadian, and at least 6 players on the field at any time. Clanachan further clarified that players would be drawn from five pools, or general sources: a foundational group of established Canadian professionals; up-and-coming Canadians who are just starting out or currently in lower-league teams (either domestically or elsewhere); players associated with a team's home territory, in order to ensure "hometown heroes" on a roster; players in the Canadian university and college system; and finally, the general open market of worldwide talent. He did not mention Canadians in the U.S. college soccer system, though they presumably would be part of either the "up-and-coming" or "open market" pools.[55] 

 

 

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11 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

This response should be viewed as the written equivalent of a sympathy laugh. 20% of the Canadian population was born overseas rising to as high as 50% in some parts of the GTA and soccer skews towards that demographic and their children in terms of who participates (especially at the elite level) and also in spectator terms although not as heavily as in the past. Is it sensible to attempt something similar to the appeals to nativism that the Chivas, Athletic Bilbao and Real Sociedad policies on player signings revolve around in that environment when a big part of the appeal of soccer for a lot of people is that it is way more cosmopolitan, outward looking and global than something like the CFL?

Is that really the appeal though? I get what you’re saying, but one of the things that bugs me about modern soccer is that it’s losing (to a degree) what has been for me one of the most interesting dynamics; I’ve always loved seeing a Spanish club, playing its own unique style, against an English or Italian club, each with their own uniqueness. The same can be said of national teams (again, less so these days) that the brand of soccer a team plays reflects its culture to some degree. 

 

The less ‘Italian’ Italy becomes (or the less X culture Y country becomes) the less the above will be true. This has been one of my criticisms of all EU nationals being considered domestic players in member nations’ leagues. Most top clubs from across Europe are now a continental amalgamation of style. All pretty similar. Not as unique, and therefore not as interesting. 

I don’t think that it’s wrong for cultures to seek their own preservation. All that being said, politics has polluted that conversation completely. There is a place for nuance though in my opinion. I know that Canada isn’t an ‘old-world’ culture, things are different here, we’re a colony, a newer country whose identity is a set of values. Fortunately, those can be shared by people from many different backgrounds, that’s not what I’m struggling with. I do challenge the idea that it’s wrong-headed to aspire to have a league that prioritized Canadians though. I would admire a club that sought to give players from its area a chance, potentially at the cost of short-term success.

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8 hours ago, Rocket Robin said:

rumours 75% Canadian...

but the 6 Canadians on the field at the same time out of 11 players make the math a minimum of  > 50%...

Robert I thought your argument months ago was the CPL wasn't a Canadian league because it didn't have a team in Newfoundland (or was it PEI?).  Based on the MLS Final between teams from cities in Vermont and Montana last year...  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Premier_League

 

Players[edit]

Although foreign players and staff would be permitted by roster regulations, the intention of the league is to foster Canadian talent and develop Canadian coaches. The league will establish a quota of the minimum number of Canadians on each roster similar to American player requirements in Major League Soccer.[52] Although three Canadian teams compete in MLS (Toronto FC, Montreal Impact, and Vancouver Whitecaps FC) there are currently no such roster requirements for Canadian players, although CSA president Victor Montagliani had previously stated that changes to these rules were imminent.[53] Following the release of initial league details, it was rumoured that 75% of all players on each roster would be required to be Canadian.[54]

In July 2018, Clanachan told The Hamilton Spectator that the league will have a salary cap, rosters of 23 to 25 players. The domestic player requirement will be that half the roster has to be Canadian, and at least 6 players on the field at any time. Clanachan further clarified that players would be drawn from five pools, or general sources: a foundational group of established Canadian professionals; up-and-coming Canadians who are just starting out or currently in lower-league teams (either domestically or elsewhere); players associated with a team's home territory, in order to ensure "hometown heroes" on a roster; players in the Canadian university and college system; and finally, the general open market of worldwide talent. He did not mention Canadians in the U.S. college soccer system, though they presumably would be part of either the "up-and-coming" or "open market" pools.[55] 

 

 

How do you interpret the following:

"If your business is facing a labour shortage, or you are unable to find the talent your business needs, why not look outside of Canada? The following programs can help you hire the right match for your business."

https://canadabusiness.ca/managing-your-business/employees/hiring-employees/hiring-foreign-workers/

Could we say that CPL clubs are signing foreign players because there is a shortage of soccer players in Canada? Or, could we say that CPL clubs are signing foreign players because there is a shortage of talented soccer players in Canada? If the answer to either or both questions is no, would Canadian soccer players not have a legal right to any roster spots that are filled by foreigners based on the CPL's Manifesto?

For instance, are you still able to play?

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A more accurate "Our Manifesto" would read as follows:

OUR 54.5% MANIFESTO

To the world, it’s the beautiful game.
To us, it’s proving we belong.
In the neighbourhoods and cities
that make us who we are.
This is a 54.5% league we can call our own.
For 54.5% Canadians, by 54.5% Canadians.
We’re on a journey out of the shadows
and back into the hearts of a 54.5% nation.
That noise you hear is us moving in.
And we’re bringing the 54.5% best
home grown talent
 with us.
Players that bleed 54.5% the same red as you.
Sworn to defend your 54.5% home turf.
Playing for your 54.5% loyalty.
Playing for 54.5% respect.
Bonds will be forged.
Colours flown.
History will be written.
Rivalries born.
The stage is 54.5% ours.
The journey has begun.
This is the 54.5% Canadian Premier League.

 

Edited by Robert

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We seem to live in a world where it is acceptable for people and organizations that are trying to establish themselves to promise us all sorts of things, like walls and nationalism, but then once they have established themselves fail to deliver.

I have always had the understanding that when you promise something, you should keep your promise, however, the fulfillment of promises doesn't appear to matter very much to quite a number of people nowadays, which does not bode well for the future. Just look at the mess down South.

"for Canadians, by Canadians" What does that really means?

 

Edited by Robert

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18 hours ago, Ams1984 said:

...I do challenge the idea that it’s wrong-headed to aspire to have a league that prioritized Canadians though...

I never advocated that idea, for what it's worth. The only thing I questioned was the idea of having a team that was exclusively Canadian. I would be keener on having a small number of older players coming in from overseas per team who are near the end of their career but can generate some extra fan interest (e.g. the rumoured Italy World Cup player for North York) and be good role models for younger Canadian players on how professional soccer players approach the sport (in an Allan Evans playing for the Victoria Vistas back in 1990 sort of way) rather than having CanPL signing a lot of younger import players.

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1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I never advocated that idea, for what it's worth. The only thing I questioned was the idea of having a team that was exclusively Canadian. I would be keener on having a small number of older players coming in from overseas per team who are near the end of their career but can generate some extra fan interest (e.g. the rumoured Italy World Cup player for North York) and be good role models for younger Canadian players on how professional soccer players approach the sport (in an Allan Evans playing for the Victoria Vistas back in 1990 sort of way) rather than having CanPL signing a lot of younger import players.

Fair enough I suppose. 

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4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I never advocated that idea, for what it's worth. The only thing I questioned was the idea of having a team that was exclusively Canadian. I would be keener on having a small number of older players coming in from overseas per team who are near the end of their career but can generate some extra fan interest (e.g. the rumoured Italy World Cup player for North York) and be good role models for younger Canadian players on how professional soccer players approach the sport (in an Allan Evans playing for the Victoria Vistas back in 1990 sort of way) rather than having CanPL signing a lot of younger import players.

This only seems to work for players that score goals. There are currently two such players in the Eredivisie:

1) 35 year old Robin van Persie, who thus far with Feyenoord has scored 7 goals, in 13 matches.

2) 35 year old Klaas-Jan Huntelaar, who thus far with Ajax has scored 6 goals in 14 matches.

In both cases, they are still contributing offensively for their respective clubs, as well as adding one more Dutch player to the line-up. The only downside is that such players are usually good for only one or two seasons after they has been released by large European clubs, as turned out to be the case with Dirk Kuyt, who scored 31 goals in 63 matches for Feyenoord.

A similar fate awaits Arjen Robben, who will any day now, make way for Alphonso Davies at Bayern Munchen.

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