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Robert

Will the CPL have a Chivas?

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So the CPL imposes a compulsory 6 Canadians-on-the-field-at-all-times quota. Is that enough, or should clubs voluntarily raise the bar to having at least 8 Canadians-on-the-field-at-all-times?

Canadian soccer fans, in general, are exposed to and follow only two brands of soccer, the real McCoy brand they play over in Europe, and the great pretender brand known as MLS. Three months from now, we will be blessed with a new brand, the "for Canadians, by Canadians" CPL brand.

Now the Euro Snobs (Canadian soccer fans commonly ridiculed for their superior taste in soccer), probably aren't rushing out to buy season tickets to watch CPL matches. Those Canadian soccer fans in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver with an MLS team to support will probably only follow the CPL with a passing interest until something of major interest evolves. So unless Ronaldo or Messi develop a serious interest to move to Canada for a year or two to close out their careers, the over-the-hill class of players will just prove to be an expensive waste of time. So too, will American MLS rejects. Those types of players will definitely not get me into my car to drive from Saanich to Langley on a rainy night.

I would be willing to shell out a couple of grand for a pair of season tickets to watch 9, 10 or 11 Canadian prospects, if they were given an opportunity at a starting position. However, a couple of grand for a pair of season tickets to watch 4 or 5 American MLS rejects because the owners would want to finish a little higher in the CPL standing? No Fucking Way! If I'm going to pay to watch SHIT, then I only want to watch Canadian SHIT!

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Pretty coherent post but I just wanted to point out Robert that Euro snobs aren’t people who just watch European soccer.. we all do.  Euro snobs are those who are so ignorant about soccer and so far up their ass that they reject that anything exists beyond the top tier brand of CL football - they’re surface level footy fans who think they know a lot because they follow the top of the sport.  When in reality we all follow the top of the sport but real supporters can analyze and view all the supporting parts - which includes local football. 

Its like if someone living in Finland only watched NHL and refused to watch SM-Liga.  Or going drinking with someone who will only drink Hennessy.. yes, we all know it’s expensive and you’re special because of it.  Or better yet, it’s like buying stock in Apple and calling yourself a sophisticated investor.  Or only watching Hollywood movies and calling yourself a film buff.

Edited by Keegan

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3 hours ago, Keegan said:

Or going drinking with someone who will only drink Hennessy.. yes, we all know it’s expensive and you’re special because of it

Thanks for the ego boost😎 my snobby ass loves to hear i'm special. 

The funniest thing about Euro snobs is the hate and disrespect they have for MLS without ever watching the league. How do you have an opinion on a league you never watch? Euro snobs know very little about world football and depend on other Euro snobs takes to formulate opinions. It's actually pretty sad when someone who claims to know a lot about football continues to call MLS retirement, then has the audacity to ask "who" when you mention Martinez and Almiron.

More to the point of this thread though, if PFC does go an all BC route I think they need to build a STRONG academy and give lots of playing time to youngsters to ensure PFC is the first choice destination in BC. It's hard to replace a player you sell, even harder if you're limiting yourself to a specific geographic location, and 3x as hard if the best prospects in your geographic location aren't in your ranks. 

 

Edited by KW519

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A person can't help when and where their born. I happened to be born in the mid-1950's, across the street from "de Meer," the stadium where Ajax played before the club moved to the Johan Cruijff Arena. Growing up, I watched the pro's and semi-pro's practicing daily on the practice pitch in front of the stadium. One day, my family decided to move to Calgary, home of the Canadian champion Springer Kickers. Although I didn't hate the Springer Kickers, I obviously didn't spend a lot of time watching them practice. If that makes me a Euro snob from a Canadian point of view, then so be it.

Back in the days when I still indulged in mind-altering pursuits, I would much prefer Hennesey XO to mouthwash, and go on drug hunts to look for some Thai-stick instead of smoking my roommate's rag-weed. I just happen to be someone who likes getting the best possible product. Like a good seat at centre field for a soccer match, as opposed to shitty seat where you can't see fuck all. Does that make me a snob?

I will always support young local prospects, in the hope that some day Canadians will be able to compete successfully at the snobbish level. However, there's no way in hell that I'll will support a fiddle-fucking bush league operation that promises to be "for Canadians, by Canadians" and ends up being a 45.5% American MLS rejects league instead.

 

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No, Robert you’re not a snob for any of the things you describe (hilariously I might add).  

I can respect someone who knows what  they’re talking about even if they don’t like local soccer.. what I can’t stand is people who have no clue what happens below elite soccer and act like an expert.  These types will probably laugh at any player who makes a mistake as if they’re amateur for doing so.. basically they have no clue.  I think the epitomy of euro snob behaviour is your person who refuses to go to an MLS match but then pays $100 to see a friendly between Celtic and Manchester United reserves and acts like they witnessed something special.  They also probably tell friends they saw Celtic v Man U.. “in the 2006 group stage?!” “Nah man, Rogers Centre 2010 it was wild!! The support was insane” 

Usually euro snobs aren’t actually from Europe @Robert because most Europeans understand the game beyond the top 4 leagues and CL.  Most of my European friends are actually really intrigued by MLS.

Edited by Keegan

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41 minutes ago, Keegan said:

No, Robert you’re not a snob for any of the things you describe (hilariously I might add).  

I can respect someone who knows what  they’re talking about even if they don’t like local soccer.. what I can’t stand is people who have no clue what happens below elite soccer and act like an expert.  These types will probably laugh at any player who makes a mistake as if they’re amateur for doing so.. basically they have no clue.  I think the epitomy of euro snob behaviour is your person who refuses to go to an MLS match but then pays $100 to see a friendly between Celtic and Manchester United reserves and acts like they witnessed something special.  They also probably tell friends they saw Celtic v Man U.. “in the 2006 group stage?!” “Nah man, Rogers Centre 2010 it was wild!! The support was insane” 

Usually euro snobs aren’t actually from Europe @Robert because most Europeans understand the game beyond the top 4 leagues and CL.  Most of my European friends are actually really intrigued by MLS.

I'd just love to see Canadian soccer burst out beyond CONCACAF mediocrity! After living in Canada for 50 years this coming May, and having seen the minimal progress the game has made here during that time, I have developed a frustrated edge. What I don't want to become is one of the many who used to be active Voyaguers and who have at some point in time disappeared off into the sunset because of similar frustrations. In other words, I do not want to be one of the ones who gives up on Canadian soccer, but Holy Fuck, it ain't easy. I guess yesterday, looking at the last time Richard (Howes), one of my greatest fans on this board, posted on this forum has me feeling the way I do today.

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Yeah, Euro snob is by definition someone that is not from Europe. You aren't a Euro snob Robert.

It's someone who exclusively cheers for one of the top teams in the world despite never having lived in the area of that team, and looks down their nose at anybody that would support their local team.

Example: Someone born and raised in Toronto, is a Real Madrid fan and refuses to go to TFC games (and likely, Canada games as well) because they play in a so called garbage league.

I don't think there is a stereotypical term for whatever it is you are Robert:)

As for your outrage over "by Canadians, for Canadians". At least they didn't say "exclusively by Canadians, exclusively for Canadians".

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I definitely support the belief that at least 50% of players on the field should be Canadian.  I could care less where they are born. A Canadian is a Canadian. 

I also know that if you want football to grow in Canada you must have foreign players. Name a good league in any sport that has no foreign players.  If we want the CPL to be forever mediocre, and ensure Canadian talent never develops, then an all Canadian league is great.

 

 

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3 hours ago, KW519 said:

More to the point of this thread though, if PFC does go an all BC route I think they need to build a STRONG academy and give lots of playing time to youngsters to ensure PFC is the first choice destination in BC. It's hard to replace a player you sell, even harder if you're limiting yourself to a specific geographic location, and 3x as hard if the best prospects in your geographic location aren't in your ranks. 

 

Even when it's way fucking nicer than any other CPL location by far, I mean, by absolutely light years?

PS: never lived there myself and don't now.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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PFC's roster will be roughly 50% Canadian so no "Chivas" situation there or likely anywhere in the league.

Anyways, the compulsory 6 Canadians-on-the-field-at-all-times quota for CPL is fine for Canada's first year D1 league.

 

As someone in an MLS market who supports the franchise (for decades even before MLS), I recognize the quality of MLS is still not the greatest and can be hard to watch at times.

In the terms of the OP, if it comes down to MLS shit or CPL shit, I'm more interested in the CPL every day of the week. Will still also support the local MLS franchise but am now more interested in following and supporting our National D1 Canadian Premier League and the closest CPL club.

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41 minutes ago, CDNFootballer said:

PFC's roster will be roughly 50% Canadian so no "Chivas" situation there or likely anywhere in the league.

Anyways, the compulsory 6 Canadians-on-the-field-at-all-times quota for CPL is fine for Canada's first year D1 league.

 

As someone in an MLS market who supports the franchise (for decades even before MLS), I recognize the quality of MLS is still not the greatest and can be hard to watch at times.

In the terms of the OP, if it comes down to MLS shit or CPL shit, I'm more interested in the CPL every day of the week. Will still also support the local MLS franchise but am now more interested in following and supporting our National D1 Canadian Premier League and the closest CPL club.

Yeah, I’m still a TFC fan, but having grown up in York Region, and living there again now, York 9 FC and the CPL generally, mean a lot more to me than mls does. I’ve bought York 9 seasons and I’ll support them above any other club. 

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5 hours ago, Nerf said:

I definitely support the belief that at least 50% of players on the field should be Canadian.  I could care less where they are born. A Canadian is a Canadian. 

I also know that if you want football to grow in Canada you must have foreign players. Name a good league in any sport that has no foreign players.  If we want the CPL to be forever mediocre, and ensure Canadian talent never develops, then an all Canadian league is great.

 

 

You're absolutely right. Every good league in the world features foreign players, so why should the CPL be any different, right?

For starters every one of those foreign leagues have pedigrees that go way back. They are all established leagues that took many years, even decades, to evolve into the structures they are today. This not the case for the CPL.

Take the Dutch Eredivisie for example. It was formed in 1956, when none of the clubs had foreign players. Over the years, as the level of domestic players became internationally competitive, clubs were allowed to have three foreign players on their rosters, of which only to were allowed to be on the field at any given time. Things remained that way until the 1995, when a European Court ruling banned the restrictions on foreign European Union players in national leagues. Today, in the 2018-2019 season there are a total of 488 players under contract with the 18 Eredivisie clubs. Of that total there are 186 foreign players, or 38% foreign players and 62% Dutch players.

If we look at arguably the world's most lucrative league, currently the Premier League allows a maximum of 17 non-"homegrown" players in each club squad, and the squad size is a maximum of 25. This means that in a full squad of 25 players, there must be at least eight homegrown players. However, this may soon change, if the following transpires:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/brexit-fa-limit-premier-league-foreign-players-cap-a8643301.html

Certainly, the CPL still has a little bit of catching up to do, before we can start to compare ourselves to other leagues. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the CPL's Manifesto reeks of "for Canadians, by Canadians." Fucking GREAT!!! I'm 100% behind that logic. However, when you start to talk 54.5% Canadian, it just doesn't really sound so fucking Canadian anymore, does it?

Do you really believe that Canadian players are really going to develop into better players if they play alongside of 5 American MLS rejects? Maybe if the old Dutch ration was employed, and CPL clubs were only allowed to have 3 foreigners on their rosters, with only 2 of those allowed on the field at any given time it would accomplish following:

1) More opportunities for Canadian players.

2) Result in higher quality foreigners being signed by CPL clubs.

3) Get optimum performances out of foreign players, as only 2 of the 3 would get to play. 

  

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3 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

PFC's roster will be roughly 50% Canadian so no "Chivas" situation there or likely anywhere in the league.

Anyways, the compulsory 6 Canadians-on-the-field-at-all-times quota for CPL is fine for Canada's first year D1 league.

 

As someone in an MLS market who supports the franchise (for decades even before MLS), I recognize the quality of MLS is still not the greatest and can be hard to watch at times.

In the terms of the OP, if it comes down to MLS shit or CPL shit, I'm more interested in the CPL every day of the week. Will still also support the local MLS franchise but am now more interested in following and supporting our National D1 Canadian Premier League and the closest CPL club.

CPL teams can only have 7 international players. So it will be 66%+ Canadian.

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I think this discussion mirrors the salary/budget arguments.  Like with wages, where you want to find a sweet spot where the teams will have decent product but not so much expenses that it sinks the league before it gets going.  Here you want mainly CDN, but having a limited # of foreign players can help the quality of the play and help with attendance.  7 internationals seems to be a nice spot to start with, and if the level of play is good you can tinker with that number down the road.  I agree with Robert, that I dont want to see a bunch of american MLS retreads just because they might be in our price range.  I'd rather the teams mine SA or the caribean (thats just me).  

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I think we're all in the same boat re: the aversion to American MLS rejects.  They have a whole pyramid for types like that - and of course Europe too.  I think everyone involved in this project sort of has this mutual understanding that Americans aren't what we're looking for, cheap and convenient as they may be because it's likely there is a Canadian equivalent somewhere out there and they don't add value to the league.  If you're foreign you should be exciting - a fresh face that could conceivably make it to a higher level or a name guy winding down his career (and hopefully draws some more fans).  We'll never see the former with American players, that's the issue.  

Of course there are exceptions, if a team could get a capped and established American player such as Feilhaber or Zusi for example that could add value to our league.  

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15 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I think this discussion mirrors the salary/budget arguments.  Like with wages, where you want to find a sweet spot where the teams will have decent product but not so much expenses that it sinks the league before it gets going.  Here you want mainly CDN, but having a limited # of foreign players can help the quality of the play and help with attendance.  7 internationals seems to be a nice spot to start with, and if the level of play is good you can tinker with that number down the road.  I agree with Robert, that I dont want to see a bunch of american MLS retreads just because they might be in our price range.  I'd rather the teams mine SA or the caribean (thats just me).  

So if main objective of signing foreign players is to improve the quality of play, I'm assuming that implies improving the quality of Canadian players, then shouldn't CPL clubs be signing all their Canadian players first to determine exactly which players the intended improvements are aimed at?  

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I think that we are doing a disservice to the managers when we say, essentially, we don't want MLS rejects.  We want the best talent that money can buy, wherever they come from and it is up to the managers to pick the best. If the number of foreign players allowed is seven, then who cares where they come from. Foreign talent will add a dimension to the league, and Canadian players need to be exposed to all manner of play if they hope to succeed internationally.  Euro leagues may have started out with national players only, but those days are long gone. It isn't that the CPL is new and should only have Canadian players. It is that the CPL is born in 2019 and should follow the lead of all world leagues.

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HAHA, no MLS...I guess I mean no americans.  We dont get treated fairly down there, so why do them any favors?  They have a whole league (including 3 CDN clubs) that do plenty to help out american players.  I am guessing that 30g CDN might get you a better central american or carrebean player than an american.  

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My first thought was of Chivas USA, and thus I was off. They were pretty awful most of the time, and even when they were good, did not get great crowds. 

I would say because of the market size variance (and talent available in areas), there is a good chance one team becomes dominant. I can see Pacific FC being dominant until a Lower Mainland team is added and the local player pool is split. In the long term, my bet would be on Forge. 

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Pacific FC will join a select group if the club does adopt a  home-grown players policy:

Europe

Spain

Athletic Bilbao - The club will only field Basque players but will and have employed non-Basque coaching staff. The clubs cantera approach has produced players such as World Cup winners Bixente Lizarazu (France, 1998), Fernando Llorente and Javi Martínez (Spain, 2010).

Romania

FC Steaua București - In 2012, the controversial Chairman George Becali announced that the contracts of the non-Romanian players will not be renewed and that Steaua București will focus on producing Romanian talent.

North America

Mexico

C.D. Guadalajara - The club will only field Mexican players. The club's academy has produced players such as Mexican internationals Carlos Vela and Javier Hernández.

South America

Ecuador

Club Deportivo El Nacional - The club has maintained a tradition of only playing Ecuadorian footballers,[4] which has given them the nickname of Puros Criollos ("Pure Natives"). They are administered by the Military of Ecuador.

Who wouldn't love a roster full of Maple Leafs?

 

 

   
1 Mexico GK Raúl Gudiño
2 Mexico DF Josecarlos Van Rankin (on loan from UNAM)
3 Mexico DF Alejandro Mayorga
4 Mexico DF Jair Pereira (Captain)
5 Mexico DF Hedgardo Marín
6 Mexico MF Dieter Villalpando
7 Mexico FW Alexis Vega
9 Mexico FW Alan Pulido
10 Mexico MF Eduardo López
11 Mexico MF Isaác Brizuela
13 Mexico MF Gael Sandoval
15 Mexico DF Tony Alfaro
16 Mexico DF Miguel Ángel Ponce
17 Mexico DF Jesús Sánchez
     
18 Mexico FW Ronaldo Cisneros
19 Mexico FW Luis Madrigal (on loan from Monterrey)
20 Mexico MF Jesús Molina
21 Mexico DF Hiram Mier
23 Mexico FW José Godínez
24 Mexico MF Carlos Cisneros
25 Mexico MF Michael Pérez
27 Mexico DF Carlos Villanueva
28 Mexico DF Miguel Basulto
29 Mexico MF Alejandro Zendejas
31 Mexico MF Alan Cervantes
34 Mexico GK Miguel Jiménez
35 Mexico GK Antonio Torres

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On 1/14/2019 at 11:33 AM, Keegan said:

Pretty coherent post but I just wanted to point out Robert that Euro snobs aren’t people who just watch European soccer.. we all do.  Euro snobs are those who are so ignorant about soccer and so far up their ass that they reject that anything exists beyond the top tier brand of CL football - they’re surface level footy fans who think they know a lot because they follow the top of the sport.  When in reality we all follow the top of the sport but real supporters can analyze and view all the supporting parts - which includes local football. 

Its like if someone living in Finland only watched NHL and refused to watch SM-Liga.  Or going drinking with someone who will only drink Hennessy.. yes, we all know it’s expensive and you’re special because of it.  Or better yet, it’s like buying stock in Apple and calling yourself a sophisticated investor.  Or only watching Hollywood movies and calling yourself a film buff.

Yo Robert, I’m really happy for you and I’m a let you finish but....Keegan here had one of the best posts of all time!!! One of the best posts of all time!

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13 hours ago, Thomas said:

I do hope at least one club in the CPL does only sign and field Canadian players 

It looks like Pacific is your last hope

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3 hours ago, C2SKI said:

It looks like Pacific is your last hope

The the greater part of onus to ensure that the CPL is truly a "for Canadians, by Canadians" league lies with the clubs. The league has ensured that clubs must field at least 6 Canadian players at all times. Fair enough. That's a great start. Now it is up to the clubs to show us how Canadian they really feel they are! If a club chooses to constantly field five foreign players, to me that demonstrates that they are only lining up Canadian players because they have to, not because they want to. The questions then become, do I want to support this level of soccer if only 12 out of the 22 players on the field are Canadian? Do I want to support this level of soccer watching the equivalent of one team that is comprised of foreigners? This is how the CPL clubs will show us their true colours. Does your club bleed "RED, WHITE & TRUE?

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