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Robert

CPL - WORLD CUP 2026

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Re: the CSA promoting the CPL:

I suppose it hinges on the CSA's mandate. The CPL is the biggest thing to happen to Canadian football in a generation so it is hard for me to contemplate that the CSA should not be doing their utmost to actively promote it.

I have said many times that I thought the CSA should have been responsible for instituting a professional Canadian league but of course they did nothing. Now that others have taken up the challenge, it seems to me the very least the CSA could do would be to support it.

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If the CPL is going to be the future of Canadian soccer, then where is the CSA going to be selecting its national team players from in the future? Why would the CSA not want to wholeheartedly support the nursery that is going to develop Canadian soccer talent? Would the CSA be better off in the future if the CPL folded? How successful has the CSA been without the CPL?

Edited by Robert

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Not that the provincial soccer associations are any better at promoting the CPL and its clubs. Looking at the following from West to East:

BC Soccer website - home page - bottom scroll shows Vancouver Whitecaps FC logo, no mention of Pacific FC or the CPL.

Alberta Soccer Association website - home page - bottom scroll shows Edmonton FC logo, no mention of Cavalry FC or the CPL.

Ontario Soccer website- home page - Toronto FC logo, CPL logo, no mention of Forge FC or York 9 FC.

Soccer Nova Scotia website - home page - No mention of HFX Wanderers FC.

Bipartisan or Multipartisan soccer relationships have never been a Canadian strong suit, which is one of the primary reasons soccer continues to flounder in this country. Each individual soccer association wants to do things their own way. This lack of be willing to work together prevents the growth of a strong and large entity.

18 to 20 year old CPL players today will be 26 to 28 years old come 2026. Can the CSA do the math?

Edited by Robert

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6 hours ago, dsqpr said:

I have said many times that I thought the CSA should have been responsible for instituting a professional Canadian league but of course they did nothing.

This is the opposite of the truth.

The CSA sowed the seeds for the CPL, but like every other FA in the world it will keep itself at an arm's length from its country's professional leagues. The CPL teams are all CSA members (just like the MLS clubs), and there is some minor overlap, but for the most part the CSA is only there to provide oversight on behalf of FIFA.

The CPL will succeed or fail on its own merits, as it should be.

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3 hours ago, RS said:

This is the opposite of the truth.

The CSA sowed the seeds for the CPL, but like every other FA in the world it will keep itself at an arm's length from its country's professional leagues. The CPL teams are all CSA members (just like the MLS clubs), and there is some minor overlap, but for the most part the CSA is only there to provide oversight on behalf of FIFA.

The CPL will succeed or fail on its own merits, as it should be.

If the CSA sowed any CPL seeds then that is good and I would like to hear about it.

By the way, the top division in England was formed as the FA Premier League -- and the FA is England's equivalent of the CSA.

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5 hours ago, dsqpr said:

If the CSA sowed any CPL seeds then that is good and I would like to hear about it.

By the way, the top division in England was formed as the FA Premier League -- and the FA is England's equivalent of the CSA.

The CSA had a more direct hand in the formation of the CPL than the FA did for the PL back in the 90s. Victor Montagliani was instrumental in the early stages in getting investors on board, and from there the initial investors (Hamilton and Winnipeg) took over.

The FA example is a unique one in that they were only involved in order to screw over the Football League. The Prem was club-driven from the beginning, but became the "FA Premier League" because that was a condition of FA approval. The FA itself had (and has) very little to do with the creation and running of the league.

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10 hours ago, RS said:

This is the opposite of the truth.

The CSA sowed the seeds for the CPL, but like every other FA in the world it will keep itself at an arm's length from its country's professional leagues. The CPL teams are all CSA members (just like the MLS clubs), and there is some minor overlap, but for the most part the CSA is only there to provide oversight on behalf of FIFA.

The CPL will succeed or fail on its own merits, as it should be.

Something that has always created a certain amount of ambiguity and confusion in North American sports is the use of the word "League." In England, the word "League" has always been understood to apply to competitions only and not governing bodies. The word "League" in North America frequently implies a self-governing league, such as the National Football League and Major League Baseball.

With several professional leagues comprised of both American and Canadian clubs, it is hard to envision a national governing sports body dictate to a league. For example, take the National Hockey League, like how much influence does Hockey Canada, the national governing body of ice hockey have over NHL clubs?

Yes, technically the CSA, like every other FA in the world, can keep itself at arm's length from the CPL, however, unlike every other FA in the world the CSA has not governed soccer in a country that  has had a professional/amateur domestic league for the past 26 years. Would it not be worth investing some of the CSA's resources into the CPL until this domestic league gets on somewhat solid footing?

If the CSA fails to support the CPL during its infancy, I wouldn't be at all surprised that in the future, should the CPL flourish and prosper, that in this North American environment, the relationship between the CPL and the CSA winds up similar to the one that exists between the NHL and Hockey Canada. For the past quarter of a century the CSA has governed a recreational soccer country. Is the CSA now ready to start governing a professional soccer country?

Does the motto: "United we stand, divided we fall" apply to Canadian soccer? I guess time will tell.

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38 minutes ago, Robert said:

...however, unlike every other FA in the world the CSA has not governed soccer in a country that  has had a professional/amateur domestic league for the past 26 years...

Strictly speaking that's actually not true. The CSA sanctioned the latter day CSL long after the original CSL folded and it was shown on the CONCACAF website for many years as being Canada's domestic pro league. Even though in reality it only covered the Windsor-Quebec corridor that still meant it was a sanctioned pro league (and there were some close to fully pro operations like the Ottawa Wizards and Toronto Olympians involved) for an area that dwarfs most CONCACAF members both in population and geographical extent.

People go a bit too far with the no domestic league argument. I suspect an all star team from any of the top provincial and large city amateur leagues, L1O and PLSQ would be able to cope with quite a few of the national teams of the smaller Caribbean islands, so can we really be said to have been drastically behind them in some way in soccer terms just because it's much easier for a team roughly comparable to ICSF Columbus or King of Donair to drive from one side of Barbados to the other than it is to do the same between Vancouver and Halifax?

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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6 hours ago, RS said:

The CSA had a more direct hand in the formation of the CPL than the FA did for the PL back in the 90s. Victor Montagliani was instrumental in the early stages in getting investors on board, and from there the initial investors (Hamilton and Winnipeg) took over.

The FA example is a unique one in that they were only involved in order to screw over the Football League. The Prem was club-driven from the beginning, but became the "FA Premier League" because that was a condition of FA approval. The FA itself had (and has) very little to do with the creation and running of the league.

That sounds a lot more like a Montagliani initiative than a CSA one. Are there no public communications from the CSA talking about their efforts in trying to get a professional league established?

The FA Premier League was formed for financial reasons. The top clubs felt that their share of revenue generated from the matches they played was unfair. You could just as easily say that the FA Premier League was formed to stop the Football League from screwing over the top clubs. In any case, the FA were clearly and publicly involved in the creation of the FA Premier League. The same cannot be said for the CSA relative to CPL. 

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5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Strictly speaking that's actually not true. The CSA sanctioned the latter day CSL long after the original CSL folded and it was shown on the CONCACAF website for many years as being Canada's domestic pro league. Even though in reality it only covered the Windsor-Quebec corridor that still meant it was a sanctioned pro league (and there were some close to fully pro operations like the Ottawa Wizards and Toronto Olympians involved) for an area that dwarfs most CONCACAF members both in population and geographical extent.

People go a bit too far with the no domestic league argument. I suspect an all star team from any of the top provincial and large city amateur leagues, L1O and PLSQ would be able to cope with quite a few of the national teams of the smaller Caribbean islands, so can we really be said to have been drastically behind them in some way in soccer terms just because it's much easier for a team roughly comparable to ICSF Columbus or King of Donair to drive from one side of Barbados to the other than it is to do the same between Vancouver and Halifax?

Is that the extent of our ambition though? Smaller Caribbean islands? I really see no point in such a comparison.

Whatever they may have been nominally, the leagues you mention are not "national". And that is what we need.

Robert is right in saying that Canada's situation is very different from the vast majority of other countries.

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Where did I suggest that should be the extent of our ambitions? I'm suggesting that an MMSL select team from Winnipeg could probably dispatch the national team of the Turks & Caicos Islands, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to see Winnipeg also have a fully pro team in a league that involves air travel. Where I differ from many on here is that I'm not hugely bothered by the question of whether the CSA or USSF does the league sanctioning just as long as it works and provides a stable format that can build up interest and thrive in the years ahead.

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4 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

That sounds a lot more like a Montagliani initiative than a CSA one.

Come on. Montagliani was the president of the CSA at the time. He wasn't working on his own behalf.

I didn't really think I needed to spell that one out.

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With roughly 5 months to go before the launch of the CPL's inaugural season, what is the level of interest that our 12 provincial soccer associations are showing about the launch of a professional coast to coast league?  Does the CPL logo or any CPL related news appear anywhere on the home pages of the provincial soccer associations' websites? The results are as follows:

Yukon - 

NWT - 

BC - 

Alberta - 

Saskatchewan - 

Manitoba - ✔️

Ontario - ✔️

Quebec - 

New Brunswick - ✔️✔️(NB gets an extra check for the best promotion of CPL)

Nova Scotia - 

PEI - 

Newfoundland & Labrador - 

 

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12 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Strictly speaking that's actually not true. The CSA sanctioned the latter day CSL long after the original CSL folded and it was shown on the CONCACAF website for many years as being Canada's domestic pro league. Even though in reality it only covered the Windsor-Quebec corridor that still meant it was a sanctioned pro league (and there were some close to fully pro operations like the Ottawa Wizards and Toronto Olympians involved) for an area that dwarfs most CONCACAF members both in population and geographical extent.

People go a bit too far with the no domestic league argument. I suspect an all star team from any of the top provincial and large city amateur leagues, L1O and PLSQ would be able to cope with quite a few of the national teams of the smaller Caribbean islands, so can we really be said to have been drastically behind them in some way in soccer terms just because it's much easier for a team roughly comparable to ICSF Columbus or King of Donair to drive from one side of Barbados to the other than it is to do the same between Vancouver and Halifax?

Strictly speaking, even if you want to scrape to bottom of the barrel, there is no way that the latter day CSL qualified as a professional national soccer league. Sure, the CSA sanctioned this league,  but I have seen no evidence that the CSA sanctioned the latter day CSL as a national league. And as far as the CONCACAF website is concerned, there's no way I accept that shit-board as the Gospel truth, and neither should you. The following makes no mention of the latter day CSL as being a professional national soccer league. So what's your proof?:

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Football_(Soccer)/The_Leagues_and_Teams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top-division_football_clubs_in_CONCACAF_countries

 

Edited by Robert

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7 hours ago, RS said:

Come on. Montagliani was the president of the CSA at the time. He wasn't working on his own behalf.

I didn't really think I needed to spell that one out.

Just because Montagliani was president does not mean that everything he did was at the behest of the CSA. Would a different president have done the same thing (assuming what you say is true)?

Are there no public communications from the CSA talking about their efforts in trying to get a professional league established? If not, I am not inclined to give them credit. You may differ and that is fine. But taking what you say at face value, I will concede that it is a moot point as to whether the CSA should be considered to have had a hand in creating the CPL. And if so, it is very odd that they are not doing more to promote it now.

Edited by dsqpr

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8 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Where did I suggest that should be the extent of our ambitions? I'm suggesting that an MMSL select team from Winnipeg could probably dispatch the national team of the Turks & Caicos Islands, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to see Winnipeg also have a fully pro team in a league that involves air travel. Where I differ from many on here is that I'm not hugely bothered by the question of whether the CSA or USSF does the league sanctioning just as long as it works and provides a stable format that can build up interest and thrive in the years ahead.

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were saying we actually do have a credible domestic league(s), albeit regional, because the best players in our league(s) are at least comparable to the national teams of small Caribbean islands.

I was just saying that I want to aim a lot higher for the top Canadian league. In other words, considering our population, yes, we are a long way behind (IMHO).

13 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...

People go a bit too far with the no domestic league argument. I suspect an all star team from any of the top provincial and large city amateur leagues, L1O and PLSQ would be able to cope with quite a few of the national teams of the smaller Caribbean islands, so can we really be said to have been drastically behind them in some way in soccer terms just because it's much easier for a team roughly comparable to ICSF Columbus or King of Donair to drive from one side of Barbados to the other than it is to do the same between Vancouver and Halifax?

 

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9 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were saying we actually do have a credible domestic league(s),...

Can we agree that many/most of our provinces and some of our larger cities have elite amateur leagues that are probably stronger than a significant portion of the national leagues within CONCACAF? If that's a given then having a national league clearly isn't the be all and end all in and of itself that some people make it out to be, which was my overall point. It's more important to have fully pro soccer of some description in other words than to have a national league like that of Montserrat given the local rec league in a town like Sarnia would probably easily eclipse that in quality terms.

For most of the last 50 years our top fully pro or close to it clubs have tended to play in American leagues as it has usually been easier to keep something afloat that way in soccer terms (with the exception of the mid to late 80s when the American pro game went indoors). My understanding of what soured the CSA on using the USSF pyramid at the pro level back in 2010 when the moratorium was imposed was how few Canadians were making it onto MLS rosters from 2007 onwards. It was probably more emotionally palatable to see that as being mainly caused by skullduggery on the part of the USSF and MLS over roster rules than to look at whether the domestic player development pathways were actually producing enough MLS quality players in the first place. 

CanPL (crazy ticket prices in Calgary notwithstanding) appears to probably be doing many of the things (like having a relatively low salary cap and a bit of a U-23 focus) that are likely to help keep it afloat, but it's still a high risk move on the part of the investors because the level of sustained fan and sponsor interest is uncertain. If it doesn't work in enough markets to keep it stable but there is a core of clubs that are doing fairly OK and need somewhere to go in an original CSL after the 1992 season sort of way, then there are always USSF leagues available thanks to FIFA allowing Canada flexibility that it denies elsewhere. The good thing is that this domestic pro league issue has finally come to a resolution because growth in pro soccer in the smaller cities was being deliberately stifled to create the conditions where a league like this could emerge and that couldn't continue indefinitely.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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36 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

CanPL (crazy ticket prices in Calgary notwithstanding) appears to probably be doing many of the things (like having a relatively low salary cap and a bit of a U-23 focus) that are likely to help keep it afloat, but it's still a high risk move on the part of the investors because the level of sustained fan and sponsor interest is uncertain.

IMO, what will sustain fan and sponsor interest is brand identity. Aside from Alphonso Davies, the average Canadian couldn't tell you the name of another National team player if his life depended on it. At the very least, what the CPL will do for Canadian soccer is provide a Canadian championship team each year. Most Canadians with even but the slightest interest in soccer can still recall the Vancouver 86ers name. It's kinda like how many Voyageurs, just a few hours before kick-off, can rattle off the names of 2 or 3 Saint Kitts players without looking it up? My guess is less than a handful, because probably like the rest of the world, nobody here really gives a flying hoot about the Saint Kitts national team unless we happen to be playing against them.

However, with the greater Canadian soccer community, provincial and national associations, being reluctant to spread the word, the identity crisis remains a serious concern.

Edited by Robert

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At the end of 2019, will the CPL rank higher in the world's top leagues, than the CSA in the FIFA/Coca-Cola World Ranking? 

https://iffhs.de/the-strongest-national-league-of-the-world-spains-primera-division-again/

THE STRONGEST NATIONAL LEAGUE OF THE WORLD : SPAIN’S LA LIGA AGAIN NUMBER 1 !

Posted on Jan 14th, 2018
by admin
Spanish-La-Liga-2017-18
 

 

Pr Shoot - Soccerex PR Shoot - Manchester - 10/9/14 Soccerex Manchester Mandatory Credit: Action Images / Paul Cooper EDITORIAL USE ONLY.

Javier Tebas, the President of LA LIGA, receives the Award 2014 in Manchester from Prinz Ali ben Al Hussein (FIFA Vice President at this moment), Robert Ley and Jassem Al Sayed (IFFHS).

 

SINCE 2010 !

 

LA LIGA in Spain is again the Strongest National League in the World in 2017. Since 2010, the Spanish Liga has dominated the ranking established by the IFFHS.

 

In 1991, the IFFHS created this ranking, considering that the performance level of a league depended on the results from the best teams of each country (only the five best teams are considered ) in national and international competitions. A point system is so applied for each league and is recognized as an objective indicator of the league level.

 

Since the beginning of this ranking in 1991, Spain (Primera Division – La Liga) has won 12 times, Italy (Serie A) 10 times, England (Premier League) 4 times and Germany (Bundesliga) 1 time.

 

In 2017, LA LIGA won narrowly ahead of  the PREMIER LEAGUE of England, which took again the second place after 4 difficult years.

At the World’s third place, the SERIE A of Brazil (place 7 in 2016) is the best league in South America before the PRIMERA A of Colombia and the PRIMERA DIVISION of Argentina.

 

The SERIE A of Italy (place 8 in 2016) made good progress to take the 4th place ahead of  the LIGUE 1 of France, which lost two places. The BUNDESLIGA of Germany dropped to 8th in the World, its worst ranking since 1991.

The DIVISION PROFESIONAL of Paraguay (17 in 2016) recovered the 9th place after 5 years and the PREMIER LEAGUE of Russia jumped 10 places from last year to join the Top 10.

 

In CONCACAF, la LIGA MX of Mexico was again the best of the Continent (in the World Top 20 since 2000). The MLS of USA regained the second place in the continent after 5 years lapse before Costa Rica, second last year.

 

In Asia (AFC), the K LEAGUE CLASSIC of Korea Republic leads the ranking of the continent for the 7th year, just before the PRO LEAGUE of Saudi Arabia, second since 2013 and the J1 LEAGUE of Japan, which won 9 places in the ranking (N°40 in 2016).

In Africa (CAF), the LIGUE 1 of Tunisia held his leadership since 2013 ahead of the PREMIER LEAGUE of Egypt, second for the last five years and the PREMIER LEAGUE of Soudan, which has its best ranking in the past five years.

 

In Oceania (OFC), the LIGUE 1 of Tahiti (111 in the World Ranking) has for the first time become the best of the Continent followed by the PREMIERSHIP of New Zealand (118) and the SUPER LIGUE of New Caledonia (126).

 

TOP 20 : UEFA 14, CONMEBOL 5 and CONCACAF 1

 

TOP 50 : UEFA 32, CONMEBOL 7, AFC 5, CAF 5, CONCACAF 1

 

UEFA TOP 3 : SPAIN – ENGLAND – ITALY

 

CONMEBOL TOP 3 : BRAZIL – COLOMBIA – ARGENTINA

 

CAF TOP 3 : TUNISIA – EGYPT – SOUDAN

 

AFC TOP 3 : KOREA REPUBLIC – SAUDI ARABIA – JAPAN

 

CONCACAF TOP 3 : MEXICO – USA – COSTA RICA

 

OCEANIA TOP 3 : TAHITI – NEW ZEALAND – NEW CALEDONIA

 

 

WORLD RANKING 2017

TOP 90 (1st January 2017 to 31th DECEMBER 2017) 

Place 2016     Points
1 ( 1 ) Spain UEFA 1195
2 ( 6 ) England UEFA 1177
3 ( 7 ) Brazil CONMEBOL 1134
4 ( 8 ) Italy UEFA 950,5
5 ( 3 ) France UEFA 938
6 ( 2 ) Colombia CONMEBOL 918
7 ( 5 ) Argentina CONMEBOL 902
8 ( 4 ) Germany UEFA 815
9 ( 17 ) Paraguay CONMEBOL 721,5
10 ( 20 ) Russia UEFA 689,5
11 ( 19 ) Greece UEFA 687
12 ( 26 ) Israel UEFA 670,5
13 ( 16 ) Cyprus UEFA 652,5
14 ( 10 ) Turkey UEFA 650
15 ( 25 ) Denmark UEFA 645
16 ( 14 ) Portugal UEFA 642,5
17 ( 24 ) Ecuador CONMEBOL 640
18 ( 12 ) Austria UEFA 625
19 ( 21 ) Croatia UEFA 623
20 ( 11 ) Mexico CONCACAF 573
21 ( 28 ) Switzerland UEFA 569
22 ( 13 ) Netherlands UEFA 568
23 ( 22 ) Ukraine UEFA 565,5
24 ( 23 ) Tunisia CAF 553
25 ( 27 ) Scotland UEFA 551,5
26 ( 9 ) Belgium UEFA 543
27 ( 15 ) Czech Republic UEFA 533,5
28 ( 18 ) Korea Republic AFC 528,5
29 ( 28 ) Saudi Arabia AFC 526
30 ( 30 ) Roumania UEFA 514,5
31 ( 40 ) Japan AFC 471,5
32 ( 31 ) Egypt CAF 447,5
33 ( 38 ) Bolivia CONMEBOL 439
34 ( 51 ) Bulgaria UEFA 429,5
35 ( 32 ) Poland UEFA 421
36 ( 46 ) Sudan CAF 413,5
37 ( 54 ) Sweden UEFA 406
38 ( 36 ) China AFC 403
  ( 34 ) Serbia UEFA 403
40 ( 64 ) FYR Macedonia UEFA 402
41 ( 44 ) Slovenia UEFA 396
42 ( 50 ) South Africa CAF 391,5
43 ( 48 ) Kazakhstan UEFA 390
44 ( 40 ) Morocco CAF 389,5
45 ( 63 ) Albania UEFA 389
46 ( 56 ) Iran AFC 388
47 ( 40 ) Belarus UEFA 375
48 ( 37 ) Norway UEFA 367
49 ( 43 ) Uruguay CONMEBOL 366
50 ( 33 ) Azerbaijan UEFA 358
  ( 62 ) Northern Ireland UEFA 358
52 ( 75 ) Lithuania UEFA 354,5
  ( 59 ) USA CONCACAF 354,5
54 ( 52 ) Costa Rica CONCACAF 340,5
55 ( 66 ) Algeria CAF 339
56 ( 68 ) Hungary UEFA 331
57 ( 57 ) Slovakia UEFA 328
58 ( 77 ) Thailand AFC 326,5
59 ( 47 ) United Arab Emirates AFC 325
  ( 55 ) Perù CONMEBOL 325
61 ( 53 ) Estonia UEFA 319,5
62 ( 45 ) Congo DR CAF 319
63 ( 69 ) Nigeria CAF 318,5
64 ( 38 ) Republic of Ireland UEFA 313
65 ( 49 ) Chile CONMEBOL 310
66 ( 35 ) Venezuela CONMEBOL 304,5
67 ( 65 ) Moldova UEFA 301
68 ( 67 ) Georgia UEFA 296,5
69 ( 58 ) Finland UEFA 289,5
70 ( 78 ) Uzbekistan AFC 287
71 ( 60 ) Qatar AFC 286
72 ( 70 ) Angola CAF 285
73 ( 76 ) Cameroun CAF 276,5
74 ( 73 ) Australia AFC 274,5
75 ( 61 ) Guatemala CONCACAF 268
76 ( 71 ) Honduras CONCACAF 263
77 ( 72 ) Nicaragua CONCACAF 256
78 ( 81 ) Zambia CAF 240
79 ( 79 ) Iceland UEFA 237,5
80 ( 73 ) Latvia UEFA 229,5
81 ( 80 ) Mali CAF 220,5
82 ( 84 ) Iraq AFC 216,25
83 ( 116 ) Syria AFC 205,75
84 ( 89 ) El Salvador CONCACAF 189
85 ( 105 ) Bosnia and Herzegovina UEFA 186
  ( 105 ) Philippines AFC 186
87 ( 84 ) Malta UEFA 182,25
88 ( 94 ) Montenegro UEFA 175
89 ( 86 ) Congo CAF 173,25

 

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How can any set of rankings be taken seriously when they claim that the Colombian domestic league is stronger than the Bundesliga?

On another note, do you think if the Vs banded together to pay for Robert to get a hooker every couple of months, he'd eventually lose interest in spamming this board with his unhinged ramblings?

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