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2019 Voyageurs Cup

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Ooh TV on Wednesday May 15th has TFC hosting DC United in an MSL game.  

Your first chance for GTA fans to see Wayne Rooney in person. 

Could hurt Vaughan and York 9 if they are hosts that night. 

 

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Very disappointing.  It seems totally random.  The worst part is Ottawa and Toronto getting ridiculous byes.  And splitting the CPL teams  and MLS teams into different rounds is just nuts. I totally agree that having one round with 10 teams that join the MLS teams in round 2 would have been more fair for all teams.  I hope next year will be more straight-forward.

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It looks like this format will make much more sense next year when the CPL clubs have one tournament under their belts and can be seeded according to actual results instead of when they were formed.

Even then, it's a bit too convoluted. And the former champion shouldn't get a bye all the way to the semis.

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3 hours ago, Kent said:

I was able to suss out their logic for where they placed each team (and it's described in here https://canpl.ca/article/battle-of-the-north-canadian-premier-league-squads-learn-paths-to-2019-canadian-championship ) but I still don't like it.

One other thing to learn from that article...

Each round will be decided over two legs, BUT if the score ends tied on both goals and away goals, the teams proceed directly to a PK shootout.  i.e. It appears there will be no possibility of an extra 30 minute frame.

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4 hours ago, Sébastien said:

In regards to the Fury and MLS teams coming in later rounds, I assume it's because, having existed prior to this season, those four clubs are seeded clubs in this competition, which CPL clubs aren't currently.

So are Blainville and Vaughn. It seems utterly arbitrary to me. Why not just give the champions a bye and let the other clubs compete in an open cup. Simple

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25 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

So are Blainville and Vaughn. It seems utterly arbitrary to me. Why not just give the champions a bye and let the other clubs compete in an open cup. Simple

Not really, since their participation isn't automatic (they need to win their own league, no?), which is why Vaughan wasn't even part of the Cup last year, it was actually Oakville.

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16 minutes ago, Sébastien said:

Not really, since their participation isn't automatic (they need to win their own league, no?), which is why Vaughan wasn't even part of the Cup last year, it was actually Oakville.

I always thought that in competitions between multiple leagues, that seeding was given to a league and not to an individual club. Regardless, they're both existing clubs that had the opportunity to win the tournament last season.

Edited by C2SKI

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3 hours ago, RS said:

It looks like this format will make much more sense next year when the CPL clubs have one tournament under their belts and can be seeded according to actual results instead of when they were formed.

Even then, it's a bit too convoluted. And the former champion shouldn't get a bye all the way to the semis.

Except TFC is the only team that is seeded due to results. The others are seeded based on the order they joined (with Edmonton being a more complicated case). So if the format holds the same, any new CPL teams will be put in the first round and older teams will be given bye to later rounds.

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9 minutes ago, Kent said:

Except TFC is the only team that is seeded due to results. The others are seeded based on the order they joined (with Edmonton being a more complicated case). So if the format holds the same, any new CPL teams will be put in the first round and older teams will be given bye to later rounds.

The press release only separates the CPL clubs into two tiers based on how old they are and doesn't mention anything of the sort for the three MLS clubs or Ottawa. That leads me to believe that they were, indeed, "seeded" based on their participation in last year's event.

If so, we can expect something similar next year, but based on actual results rather than date of inception. Going forward, I suspect any new CPL clubs will automatically be placed in the opening round as they have no history upon which to determine seeding (if they keep the format the same/similar).

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1 hour ago, RS said:

The press release only separates the CPL clubs into two tiers based on how old they are and doesn't mention anything of the sort for the three MLS clubs or Ottawa. That leads me to believe that they were, indeed, "seeded" based on their participation in last year's event.

If so, we can expect something similar next year, but based on actual results rather than date of inception. Going forward, I suspect any new CPL clubs will automatically be placed in the opening round as they have no history upon which to determine seeding (if they keep the format the same/similar).

I really wonder how they would seed the entire field based on results. Let’s say York 9 beats out Cavalry in the first round then lose a close one to Forge. Then in the following round Forge loses to Montreal and Ottawa gets demolished by Vancouver. How do you rate those non MLS teams against each other? York 9 and Forge both won 1 round, so do they accumulate the same number of seeding points? But Forge beat York 9, so do they get bonus points? What about Ottawa? They didn’t win at all, but they made it further than York 9.

It seems to me if they are going to seed this tournament all the way down the line it would have to be with a CONCACAF Index style system, but the incredibly staggered nature of the competition makes it very difficult or impossible to fairly come up with a points system.

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3 minutes ago, Kent said:

I really wonder how they would seed the entire field based on results. Let’s say York 9 beats out Cavalry in the first round then lose a close one to Forge. Then in the following round Forge loses to Montreal and Ottawa gets demolished by Vancouver. How do you rate those non MLS teams against each other? York 9 and Forge both won 1 round, so do they accumulate the same number of seeding points? But Forge beat York 9, so do they get bonus points? What about Ottawa? They didn’t win at all, but they made it further than York 9.

It seems to me if they are going to seed this tournament all the way down the line it would have to be with a CONCACAF Index style system, but the incredibly staggered nature of the competition makes it very difficult or impossible to fairly come up with a points system.

Yeah, this doesn't lend itself to anything easy in terms of seeding. As I originally said, I'm not the biggest fan of this format, but I feel a little bit of explanation by the CSA would go a long way in addressing some of the (many) concerns posted here and elsewhere.

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It was always going to be unlikely for a CPL team to upset an MLS team this year in the tournament. The best chance CPL teams had was in the power of numbers. But then the CSA takes that advantage away right off the bat because this format ensures at least 4 CPL teams will be eliminated before the first chance at a CPL vs MLS match up. It’s as if the CSA doesn’t realize a positive perception of CPL is their best case scenario. Unless they really are trying to protect teams from losing badly to MLS teams.

On the topic of big losses, I don’t actually think TFC would beat Vaughan 9-0. You have to remember that if TFC was playing Vaughan they wouldn’t be putting Giovinco, Altidore or Vazquez on the field. They would put out a weakened lineup like they did against Ottawa when they lost the first leg to them a year or two ago. I don’t think a TFC 2ish lineup would humiliate Vaughan or Blainville.

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Apologies for posting so much on this topic and just spewing random thoughts, but I am going to add one more.

People have mentioned that they don’t like the straight to shootout decision. I will say this in favour of it. I think one of the reasons Canadian teams have done better than American teams in the CCL is because the Voyageurs Cup format is so similar to CCL (two legged playoffs). With that said, the CCL goes straight to a shootout as well. So it could be that the CSA is taking a cue from the CCL to potentially better prepare our champions when they get to CCL.

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No competition should ever go straight to PK's. 

On an unrelated topic: I don't understand why Canada still only gets one entry in the CCL. The winner of the Cup AND the CanPL league winners should both get in IMO. 

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7 hours ago, shamrock said:

No competition should ever go straight to PK's. 

On an unrelated topic: I don't understand why Canada still only gets one entry in the CCL. The winner of the Cup AND the CanPL league winners should both get in IMO. 

I agree but I think at least one game should have been played before any real argument can be made to CONCACAF.

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After the initial shock of such a messed up table, I am back to being excited that we have 13 teams in the league.  More really, as Vaughan and Blainville earned the right to be in the league, so technically all the teams in their respective leagues also participate.  So good for Canadian soccer and a proud year for the Voyageurs Cup.

 

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On 1/10/2019 at 8:38 PM, Kent said:

I really wonder how they would seed the entire field based on results. Let’s say York 9 beats out Cavalry in the first round then lose a close one to Forge. Then in the following round Forge loses to Montreal and Ottawa gets demolished by Vancouver. How do you rate those non MLS teams against each other? York 9 and Forge both won 1 round, so do they accumulate the same number of seeding points? But Forge beat York 9, so do they get bonus points? What about Ottawa? They didn’t win at all, but they made it further than York 9.

It seems to me if they are going to seed this tournament all the way down the line it would have to be with a CONCACAF Index style system, but the incredibly staggered nature of the competition makes it very difficult or impossible to fairly come up with a points system.

You may not need to precisely seed the entire field to determine who gets byes - if you give a bye to the quarterfinals ("qualifying round 3") to teams ranked 2-4, it doesn't particularly matter who is ranked #2 and who is ranked #4 provided that the matches are determined by random draw (which seems to be the case).

It wouldn't be that difficult if they keep the same format:
- 1 bye to the semi-finals goes to the champion.
- 3 byes to QR3 go to the 3 teams who entered the semi-finals.
- 3 byes to QR2 go to the 3 teams who lost in QR3.

The problem will only arise if they decide to change the format in the later rounds and (for example) your #4 seed starts entering one round earlier.  (Personal opinion: your #4 seed would be whoever lost to the finalist).  Regardless, I refuse to put any more thought into this than the CSA inevitably will, so your seeding priority is as follows:
1) Champion
2) MLS teams ranked by season standings
3) Apparently, OFFC
4) CPL teams ranked by season standings

Argue the logic if you must but I have no reason to believe the CSA would choose any different method based on what we've seen this year.

Edited by Gopherbashi

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