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Kent

Full CONCACAF Club Index

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OK, here is my full CONCACAF Club Index table. This is a sorted list of all CCL/CL slot scores (including GUA2 which I haven't seen scores for yet, but I should have it correct). I will try to keep this original post updated as results happen (within reason) in CONCACAF League and CONCACAF Champions League, at least until CONCACAF puts up this kind of info on their website.

Slot Country 2014-15 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 Club Index
MEX2 MEX 16 20 30 25 18 109
MEX3 MEX 32 23 15 17 13 100
MEX1 MEX 11 33 27 12 15 98
CAN1 CAN 23 8 22 21 5 79
USA3 USA 13 16 20 17 11 77
USA4 USA 20 16 8 5 11 60
USA1 USA 11 14 11 11 11 58
USA2 USA 9 13 14 7 15 58
PAN1 PAN 4 10 20 8 12 54
MEX4 MEX 9 18 10 9 4 50
CRC2 CRC 18 9 14 5 3 49
PAN2 PAN 8 10 8 13 8.5 47.5
HON1 HON 15 10 11 5 4 45
CRC1 CRC 12 10 8 5 7 42
HON2 HON 8 11 11 2 3 35
SLV2 SLV 5 6 5 11.5 5 32.5
GUA1 GUA 11 8 9 0 4 32
SLV1 SLV 4 7 9 7 5 32
CCC2 CCC 10 7 5 2 5 29
CRC4 CRC 0 0 0 22.5 5 27.5
NCA1 NCA 6 4 6 5 5.5 26.5
PAN3 PAN 0 0 0 11 15 26
CCC1 CCC 4 8 5 4 4 25
PAN4 PAN 0 0 0 8.5 16 24.5
CCC3 CCC 4 5 4 5 5.5 23.5
HON3 HON 0 0 0 2 21.5 23.5
GUA2 GUA 8 8 6 0 0 22
CRC3 CRC 0 0 0 2 19.5 21.5
HON4 HON 0 0 0 20.5 0 20.5
BLZ1 BLZ 0 8 4 2 2 16
SLV3 SLV 0 0 0 8.5 6.5 15
SCL1 SCL 0 0 0 5 7 12
NCA2 NCA 0 0 0 9.5 2 11.5
CCC4 CCC 0 0 0 2 5 7


Notes about the table:

1. The orange numbers are points gained in CONCACAF League. The black numbers were gained in CONCACAF Champions League.

2. If CCL and CL spots strictly used Club Index teams above the first orange line would be in Pot A for CCL. Teams between the first orange line and the green line advance straight to CCL in Pot B. Teams between the green line and the 2nd orange line advance straight to CL. Teams between the second orange line and the red line go to the preliminary CL round. Teams below the red line would not be in CCL or CL.

3. Starting from the 2017-18 column and moving forward, CONCACAF League points are from the first year (Ex: 2017) and CCL points are from the second year (Ex: 2018).

4. The Club Index is the total points from the last 5 years.

5. Legend: BLZ (Belize), CAN (Canada), CCC (Caribbean), CRC (Costa Rica), GUA (Guatemala), HON (Honduras), MEX (Mexico), NCA (Nicaragua), PAN (Panama), SCL (CONCACAF League champions), SLV (El Salvador), USA (United States) 

Edited by Kent

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I've been thinking about rules for relegating slots out of the rotation, and for new slots to appear in the rotation. Here's what I've come up with in terms of potential rules for how they could do this using the club index. Whenever I mention countries I am counting all of the Caribbean as a country, and not considering the CONCACAF League champions as a country.

1. Each country has a minimum of 1 slot and a maximum of 4 slots in total (combined CCL and CL).

2. At the end of each year, the lowest ranked slot in the CONCACAF League gets bumped out of the competition.

3. A new slot is awarded to the nation who has fewer than 4 slots and has the highest average club index for it's existing slots.

4. New slots cannot be relegated out of CONCACAF League until they have had 5 consecutive seasons in continental competitions (to give them a meaningful Club Index).

5. Promotion/relegation between CCL and CL is strictly based on the Club Index, so there could be some years where there is no pro/rel, and there could be years where there are multiple slots promoted/relegated to/from CCL. The CONCACAF League champions slot never gets relegated from CCL.

Any thoughts? Suggestions for a better system? Here is the table for national averages, not including CRC3 and CCC4 since they are outside the top 32.

National averages
   
Country Number of slots Average
MEX 4 99.25
CAN 1 84
USA 4 65.5
CRC 3 43.5
GUA 2 35
PAN 4 34
HON 4 29.5
SLV 3 27.5
CCC 3 26.16666667
NCA 2 19
BLZ 1 16

When a country (Ex: Canada) gets a new slot because they have the highest average, their average will then drop because there will be a new slot (ex: CAN2) that doesn't have any Club Index data (or at least it would be low because it would have been a slot that was relegated and didn't play for at least a year). This helps give other countries a chance at getting an additional slot.

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I've updated the OP with this week's results. I will keep editing the OP with updated numbers as the matches happen, but I think I won't bother posting a comment letting people know until probably after the CONCACAF League campaign is over.

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Herediano (CRC3) won the CONCACAF League last night, which earns them a spot in the 2019 CONCACAF Champions League. I've updated the table in the original post with up to date numbers.

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I forgot about the national averages table. Here's the up to date version of that one.

Country Number of slots Average
MEX 4 99.25
CAN 1 84
USA 4 65.5
PAN 4 38.75
CRC 4 38
GUA 2 35
HON 4 32.75
SLV 3 27.5
NCA 1 26.5
CCC 3 26.16666667
BLZ 1 16

Panama leapfrogged Guatemala and Costa Rica, and Nicaragua surpassed the Caribbean.

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I'm not sure what to do with this. I was excited about CCL starting up but I don't know how or if they are going to use the club index anymore. Are there going to be SCL1 through SCL6 slots going forward? Or are the teams that advance to CCL going to have the slot they were using in CL get more points in CCL? If so, does that give them an advantage over the teams that skip out on CL in terms of aquiring points to get into Pot A? Are they even going to use the club index to pot teams in CCL and CL? And this last point isn't relevant for tonights games, but are there going to be points up for grabs in the preliminary round of CL?

I'll probably just update the table as is until there is some more clarity.

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I have updated with last nights results. I've also simplified it a little bit by removing columns that are no longer needed, points that CONCACAF doesn't recognize, and I've stopped putting SCL1 in the top 16. I haven't changed the placement of the lines yet to reflect the new format, but I suppose I'll probably do that at some point this week when I feel motivated enough to do it.

Worthy of mention, if Kansas City can knock off Toluca in the first round, the MEX4 spot could very well drop out of the top 8. I still don't know if these rankings will be used next year, but that would be something to have a Mexican team outside of Pot A!

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On 2/19/2019 at 11:50 AM, Kent said:

I'm not sure what to do with this. I was excited about CCL starting up but I don't know how or if they are going to use the club index anymore. Are there going to be SCL1 through SCL6 slots going forward? Or are the teams that advance to CCL going to have the slot they were using in CL get more points in CCL? If so, does that give them an advantage over the teams that skip out on CL in terms of aquiring points to get into Pot A? Are they even going to use the club index to pot teams in CCL and CL? And this last point isn't relevant for tonights games, but are there going to be points up for grabs in the preliminary round of CL?

I'll probably just update the table as is until there is some more clarity.

I don't really have much clarity to offer here, but from what I've seen elsewhere (incl. Wikipedia), I don't think you can really combine the tables like this. From what I've seen, the CCL only takes the ranking points from CCL play, whereas CL adds the points from both competitions together to determine the ranking (prior to this year's shakeup).

The points do break down a little bit in regards to which teams were pushed into the CL preliminary round, but I think they have another req that they built into it (this year at least). SLV2 was dropped down to the preliminary round, despite having more points than NCA1.

I think, moving forward, you may wish to "split" the table, adding in SCL2 - SCL6 with the CCL. I think these spots (and SCL1) will "maintain" their points, even as the individual year's points are transferred to the appropriate CL slot for their rankings. These slots don't exist in 2019, so they'd start at 0 for the 2020 CCL.

Personally, I find this table very valuable. It's unfortunate they didn't stick to it when expanding the CL.

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1 hour ago, Rintaran said:

I don't really have much clarity to offer here, but from what I've seen elsewhere (incl. Wikipedia), I don't think you can really combine the tables like this. From what I've seen, the CCL only takes the ranking points from CCL play, whereas CL adds the points from both competitions together to determine the ranking (prior to this year's shakeup).

The points do break down a little bit in regards to which teams were pushed into the CL preliminary round, but I think they have another req that they built into it (this year at least). SLV2 was dropped down to the preliminary round, despite having more points than NCA1.

I think, moving forward, you may wish to "split" the table, adding in SCL2 - SCL6 with the CCL. I think these spots (and SCL1) will "maintain" their points, even as the individual year's points are transferred to the appropriate CL slot for their rankings. These slots don't exist in 2019, so they'd start at 0 for the 2020 CCL.

Personally, I find this table very valuable. It's unfortunate they didn't stick to it when expanding the CL.

Finally some discussion! Glad someone is getting some value out of this.

As for combining the tables, and NCA1 being placed ahead of SLV2, and other such things, yeah I know. This is more of an exercise to see what is possible if CONCACAF got their act together and adapted a more UEFA style that determines how many spots each country gets, and seeding, based on results. So it's part informational, showing the real life points each slot has, and it's part fantasy, for what these tournaments could/should look like.

I seem to be in the minority on this site for thinking these numbers should be used for determining spots, since whenever I make comments about it there doesn't seem to be any traction and people tend to talk about having spots here and there gifted, and how it's not fair to take a spot away from another country, etc.

I saw in Wikipedia the SCL1 through 6 table. I'll add those if/when they will be useful. Right now, as you say, they would have 0 points, so it doesn't add any value, and we don't know for sure if they will actually do that, or if they will do something that actually rewards the countries that perform well in CCL via the SCL slots. Like, if CRC1 advances to CCL and wins the whole thing, maybe CRC1 should be given some credit instead of SCL3 or whatever slot they were using. We will see.

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1 minute ago, Kent said:

Finally some discussion! Glad someone is getting some value out of this.

As for combining the tables, and NCA1 being placed ahead of SLV2, and other such things, yeah I know. This is more of an exercise to see what is possible if CONCACAF got their act together and adapted a more UEFA style that determines how many spots each country gets, and seeding, based on results. So it's part informational, showing the real life points each slot has, and it's part fantasy, for what these tournaments could/should look like.

I seem to be in the minority on this site for thinking these numbers should be used for determining spots, since whenever I make comments about it there doesn't seem to be any traction and people tend to talk about having spots here and there gifted, and how it's not fair to take a spot away from another country, etc.

I saw in Wikipedia the SCL1 through 6 table. I'll add those if/when they will be useful. Right now, as you say, they would have 0 points, so it doesn't add any value, and we don't know for sure if they will actually do that, or if they will do something that actually rewards the countries that perform well in CCL via the SCL slots. Like, if CRC1 advances to CCL and wins the whole thing, maybe CRC1 should be given some credit instead of SCL3 or whatever slot they were using. We will see.

In your bottom example, SCL3 would receive credit for the CCL rankings (to determine that spots seeding in CCL), but CRC1 would also receive credit as part of their CL Rankings taking the points earned in both 2018 CL and 2019 CCL as a single-year's points. That would give CRC1 the appropriate seeding for CL, and help create the necessary hierarchy for this table.

I actually agree that a solid points system should be used for determining spots. That's one of the reasons why I think they should actually have cut all of Pot B from CCL and put them into CL and letting the full 8-spot float to top 8 in CL. Then, moving forward, it could always be whomever pointed-up to Pot A based on CCL points gets to skip the CL.

If you look in the "history" for the 2019 CL article on Wikipedia, someone did put together an extended table. It was removed because of the issue with SLV2 & NCA1, but I would not be surprised if it resurfaces at some point down the line. BLZ1 was the only "1" team that didn't get a bye past the preliminary round, so it there may be something there.

I use this same table (or one very similar) for determining my "temporary" elo for CCL and CL teams in my calculation for NSXI. Given the new year-round soccer format we'll be seeing though, I may have to make those elo-rankings sticky to the national slots for the non-CAN/USA sides.

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I don't think people are actively checking this, but just in case, I was slow updating with last weeks results because I was on vacation with no internet access last week. I've updated the table now. With Toluca losing both it's games the MEX4 slot is actually in 10th place, behind PAN1. They will hold their position though and won't fall below the green line since the teams remaining in the tournament are all ahead of that spot anyways.

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Posted (edited)

Just wanted to make note, although the table is not updated here at the moment, the results of the Sporting Kansas City vs Independiente 2nd leg, happening May March 14th, are hugely important.

PAN1 is already above MEX4.

Assuming Atlanta (USA1) loses their match tonight:

A draw puts PAN1 at 56 points, above both USA1 & USA2. Additionally USA1 would have the same CCL points as USA2 (55).

A victory pulls PAN1 to 58 points, just 2 points shy of USA4 (60).

Edited by Rintaran
typo. Need coffee.

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41 minutes ago, Big_M said:

SKC vs CAI is March 14

Yup. I need more coffee apparently.

Fixed it.

Still important for all reasons stated.

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4 hours ago, Rintaran said:

Just wanted to make note, although the table is not updated here at the moment, the results of the Sporting Kansas City vs Independiente 2nd leg, happening May March 14th, are hugely important.

PAN1 is already above MEX4.

Assuming Atlanta (USA1) loses their match tonight:

A draw puts PAN1 at 56 points, above both USA1 & USA2. Additionally USA1 would have the same CCL points as USA2 (55).

A victory pulls PAN1 to 58 points, just 2 points shy of USA4 (60).

Oops! I had thought it was up to date but I had managed to miss the March 6th games. Thanks for pointing it out! Corrected.

And yeah, I'm rooting for Independiente to expose the idiocy of the recent changes that strips the Central American teams of their direct CCL spots.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Rintaran said:

Just wanted to make note, although the table is not updated here at the moment, the results of the Sporting Kansas City vs Independiente 2nd leg, happening May March 14th, are hugely important.

PAN1 is already above MEX4.

Assuming Atlanta (USA1) loses their match tonight:

A draw puts PAN1 at 56 points, above both USA1 & USA2. Additionally USA1 would have the same CCL points as USA2 (55).

A victory pulls PAN1 to 58 points, just 2 points shy of USA4 (60).

Whelp, Altanta really threw that out the window.

If PAN1 wins, they would now be tied with USA1 (58).

14 hours ago, Kent said:

Oops! I had thought it was up to date but I had managed to miss the March 6th games. Thanks for pointing it out! Corrected.

And yeah, I'm rooting for Independiente to expose the idiocy of the recent changes that strips the Central American teams of their direct CCL spots.

Yeah, they really should have just gone with the bottom-half of the table, porting all 8 of them over, including any Mexican and American teams. I really don't see why they should have 4 automatic top-level entries. Especially with how this year is playing out.

Fine, keep the CCC champion since they already have to win over a pretty large field, but sacrificing these automatic berths seems pretty low, as much as I want to see us have a 2nd.

Edited by Rintaran

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3 hours ago, Rintaran said:

Whelp, Altanta really threw that out the window.

If PAN1 wins, they would now be tied with USA1 (58).

Yeah, they really should have just gone with the bottom-half of the table, porting all 8 of them over, including any Mexican and American teams. I really don't see why they should have 4 automatic top-level entries. Especially with how this year is playing out.

Fine, keep the CCC champion since they already have to win over a pretty large field, but sacrificing these automatic berths seems pretty low, as much as I want to see us have a 2nd.

Personally I'd rather they have kept it like it was, with 15 teams auto qualified for CCL, and the 1 CL champion. The way it is now there are too few teams that go straight into CCL in my opinion, and letting the top 6 teams from CL in to CCL kind of cheapens the accomplishment of winning CL.

I also don't like the Caribbean champion going straight to CCL. It's leading them in to slaughter. This year the Caribbean champ got shut out 5-0 by NYRB over 2 legs. Last year they lost 7-0 over 2 legs to Chivas. The year before that when there was still a group stage and 3 Caribbean teams were in CCL, they had a combined record of 0 wins, 2 draws, 10 losses, with a -27 goal differential. I think it would be better for the Caribbean champ to go to CL which would be more at their level. And of course, even in CL it has been a struggle. In 2017 they had a combined 1 win and 5 losses with a goal difference of -9. 2018 went better with 3 wins and 5 losses, and a team progressed out of the first round. If and when their results in CL are good enough to move up to CCL, then fantastic, move them up. But I hate these placements that are baked into the rules.

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