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Obinna

How will the format look with CPL teams?

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1 hour ago, Blackdude said:

Ok. Did you see that I mentioned, that there is no way that you'd get that many L1O/PLSQ team able to host matches? That's the main reason why it can't happen. Go ask PLSQ and L1O clubs if they think they could host a V's Cup game and most will say that they couldn't if they didn't have help from their provincial assocation provding the pitch.

I get that too. It's a CSA tournament and I hope they would be working towards a solution instead of just throwing the towel. 

Blainville playing in Laval could be of of such arrangements while there's funding put in place to upgrade facilities. That's why I would pick the finalists of both leagues first until I open the tournament wide open.

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3 hours ago, Ansem said:

I understand you just fine but we have 8 CPL teams. How do you determine which one meets MLS teams in Quarterfinals as it's their 1st season? Would they have to qualify for that stage? I just don't see the CSA doing that personally.

8 CPL + 3 MLS + finalists of L1O and PLSQ (4) + Next best D3 team = 16 teams (random draw)

That would make a fun tournament.

 

I can't see 5 L1O/PLSQ teams in this tournament. I don't believe that is realistic unfortunately.

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I think it is reasonable for MLS teams to have a bye for 2019 and 2020 and beyond just rank teams based on last years results.

That being said, a random draw every year would be intriguing, but that would eliminate byes, which I personally like as it rewards stronger clubs. Random draw would be fresh though.

Another problem with Random draws and no byes is that we'd need 16 teams, which as I said before is a challenge to say the least. Or we could do 8 teams, but what happens to the other 3? I like the idea but I don't see how it'd work right now.

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28 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I can't see 5 L1O/PLSQ teams in this tournament. I don't believe that is realistic unfortunately.

I think the CSA has to fix this, accepting that early round games will likely not be much of a revenue maker. The USSF has greatly expanded the US Open over the last couple years by including PDL, NPSL, USASA teams etc. Early round games can be played on weekend afternoons if need be. Some the facilities used even in th early rounds of the FA Cup would not meet CSA standard and that is a complete joke.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cblake said:

I think the CSA has to fix this, accepting that early round games will likely not be much of a revenue maker. The USSF has greatly expanded the US Open over the last couple years by including PDL, NPSL, USASA teams etc. Early round games can be played on weekend afternoons if need be. Some the facilities used even in th early rounds of the FA Cup would not meet CSA standard and that is a complete joke.

 

 

I would love it if they extended it down to PDL, and even amateur teams. Like have the winner of each senior provincial league qualify. That is all long term stuff.

In the near term, you could drop the facility requirements, but that doesn't solve the travel issue. The USOC is very regionalized in the early stages. How would that look in canada?

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My two cents in this is definitely not a traditional method but have the winner of L1O and PLSQ play each other winner moves on to the next stage where the 12 remain in teams are split into 4 groups of 3 and teams play each team once with one home and away fixture so for example a group of Toronto, Valour, Edmonton could be   Toronto (h) vs Edmonton, Edmonton(h) vs Valour,             Valour (h) vs Toronto.                    Winner of each group moves on to a two legged semifinal and the winner of the two semifinals play each other in the final  

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Posted (edited)

This is my reasoning on why you don't give bye to MLS clubs.

Canadian Championship not being on TV should have pointed people to the obvious fact that not many watches the tournament. Casuals don't care about it, the media barely does. MLS teams facing each other in the finals year after year didn't change the poor ratings.

By giving "bye" to MLS teams, you're almost guarantee to repeat the same teams meeting up in the finals AGAIN. Has that drew before? Why would it draw more now or later if it didnt in the past with guys like Drogba and Giovinco and even Davies?

Ok, some will say that CPL teams will bring more viewers. Sure, but they were still uninterested in the Canadian Championship finals featuring the same teams years after years. What makes you guys so sure that once their teams are out, they will keep watching the same teams going at it in the finals, which they've been ignoring the entire time?

From a broadcaster perspective, a massive drop in viewership for the final game isn't good either. There should be a built up towards the final, not the other way around. 

With a random draw, MLS teams could be facing each other earlier and could be eliminated earlier. That increases the odds of different combinations of final games while creating NOVELTY and a STORY to get behind...most people like cheering for the underdog.

If MLS teams are that good (which they are), one of them will win the tournament regardless but make the whole ride so much more enjoyable and it could draw more fans in the process. Isn't that what we all want, what the CSA wants, what media/casual would prefer and most importantly the players would want new challenges? So we should pay the price of frustratingly witness an overall lack of interest in this competition just to please teams who's "raison d'etre" is to actually play games and compete...Makes no sense.

Lastly, the argument that MLS teams deserves or earned those byes, my question is at what price? This tournament is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT. They earn CCL after winning it. Why should they get special treatments while Real Madrid doesn't get byes straight to Quarterfinals or Semifinals. I'd like to think they've earned such privilege way more than TFC or Montreal.

So let's push (it's the V Cup after all) together to get 16 teams in random draw. If more teams get added than it should be MLS and CPL while some sort of qualifiers for D3 leagues. 

What do you guys think?

Thank you

@socceronly What say you?

Edited by Ansem

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I'm probably in the minority on this one, but perhaps now might be a good time to have a conversation about whether Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal belong in the Voyageurs Cup anymore once the CPL kicks off.  The argument for them playing in MLS because there is no Canadian option (AS Monaco as a comparable) will be gone, and now they are choosing to stay in an American league.  And if I'm not mistaken, they are half owned by the American league itself.

Yes, yes, yes, I know that MLS is a "better" league and that these clubs are ensconced in MLS now, but I'm thinking that with a proper Canadian league, the Swansea comparison becomes a little bit more appropriate (where they are essentially an English team, competing in only English competitions).

Has the CSA given any indication as to the CCL berth?  Because this might be another thing, if the Voyageurs Cup does not earn the club a CCL spot.  I for one cannot think of any justification where with just a single CCL spot given to Canada, we would give that to the Cup winner and not the league winner.

 

 

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On 7/16/2018 at 7:35 PM, Kent said:

I’ve said this multiple times, probably on the General CPL thread, but I don’t want anything that ranks MLS teams ahead of CPL teams, even in year one.

This is critical.  To rank MLS teams above CPL would be a capitulation, and an admission of minor league status.  Canadian teams first, please.

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The fact is the MLS teams are the best teams in the country and spend on it, no CPL team will ever spend to the level TFC does. It makes no economic sense in any way especially when you look at some of the stadium capacities. But the real issue is that the Champions League spots are with the national association and not the leagues. Right now the only path for Champions League for TFC, Vancouver and Montreal is through the VCup as the can't through the MLS as those are USSF spots. 

With that it mind, I would propose a 40 team VCup, which was the format for the US Open Cup up until 2011. I would lean towards it being single elimination but two game series could certainly be used in some way if desired. 

The draw would have a regional component to it until at least the quarterfinal so teams would not be strapped with long expensive road trips. This is also done for the US Open Cup. 

This is just an idea I was thinking about. 

Round  
First Round        32 Team       3 CPL for now, L1O,  PLSQ, VMSL etc
Second Round       16 Teams  
Third Round       16 teams 3 MLS clubs and 5 CPL Clubs enter
Quarterfinals       8 Teams  
Semifinals      4 Teams  
Final       2 Teams

 

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11 hours ago, Cblake said:

The fact is the MLS teams are the best teams in the country and spend on it, no CPL team will ever spend to the level TFC does.

Just putting this out there. Do you think Chelsea, Manchester City, and Manchester United should get byes to later rounds of the FA Cup than the rest of the Premier League teams? Those 3 spend more than the other teams in the league.

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 I don't think CSA would stop the MLS teams from getting the Canadian  spot for multiple reasons. 1) CSA will want to send their best team to the Champions' League and having the V's Cup is right now the only way it allows its best team a shot to win it.  2) It's true they are Canadian teams playing in an American league, the CSA still had to allow all those teams to play in those said leagues. They could have nixed it. 3) They can't play in the US Open Cup And I don't see USSF allowing them to play in this because they don't sanction those 3 teams, the CSA does.  3) Stop comparing our situation to what is happening in Wales. It's a different situation because those Welsh teams in the English system were playing in the Welsh Cup until 1995 and weren't allowed into the FA Cup until then. If the USSF allows the Canadian MLS teams to qualify out of MLS/US Open Cup, then sure they can be out of the V's Cup, but until then I still think that they are Canadian teams in an American league. 4) If CSA did pull the MLS teams from the V's Cup without a possiblity at CCL, you have to expect that CSA may not get those MLS Academy players for youth camps and CONCACAF qualifiers. I don't think that they would want to enter a war with the MLS clubs.

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On 7/17/2018 at 4:43 AM, Blackdude said:

 

I think that in the end, 3 MLS team will start in the Quarterfinals alongside 1 CPL team. The other 7 CPL teams will play with the winner of the play-in game between L1O and PLSQ. 

 

I think is most likely to happen or at least makes the most sense. My guess is that Ottawa would be the 1 CPL team with a by into the Q-F due to having finished 4th in the 2018 edition of the tournament, ahead of the League 1O & PLSQ winner. Going forward, the CPL team in the Q-F might be the team that wins the league (which they can't do heading into 2019 as there was no league before).

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22 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I think is most likely to happen or at least makes the most sense. My guess is that Ottawa would be the 1 CPL team with a by into the Q-F due to having finished 4th in the 2018 edition of the tournament, ahead of the League 1O & PLSQ winner. Going forward, the CPL team in the Q-F might be the team that wins the league (which they can't do heading into 2019 as there was no league before).

I think this is an embarrassment if this happens.  Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver should be given no special treatment.  They play in an American league, and treat this tournament like an afterthought.  That the league would only get 1 (one!) club in the quarter-finals would be a disgrace, and basically them lying down for MLS.  MLS has made few if any exceptions for Canadian soccer, why should we make exceptions for them?  

I personally don't think that American teams should be allowed in the Voyageurs Cup, but if they are, then they should not be held to a higher esteem than the Canadian clubs.  We have it tough enough to compete with the more established MLS.  

Is it confirmed then that the Canadian Champions League spot will be given to the Voyageurs Cup winner? 

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14 minutes ago, RJB said:

I think this is an embarrassment if this happens.  Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver should be given no special treatment.  They play in an American league, and treat this tournament like an afterthought.  That the league would only get 1 (one!) club in the quarter-finals would be a disgrace, and basically them lying down for MLS.  MLS has made few if any exceptions for Canadian soccer, why should we make exceptions for them?  

I personally don't think that American teams should be allowed in the Voyageurs Cup, but if they are, then they should not be held to a higher esteem than the Canadian clubs.  We have it tough enough to compete with the more established MLS.  

Is it confirmed then that the Canadian Champions League spot will be given to the Voyageurs Cup winner? 

There are no American teams in Voyageurs Cup

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Folks should get a bit of perspective, there is a bit of cockiness here that flies in the face of the Voyageurs Cup. 

We founded the Cup when our teams were playing in US based leagues, and that was good enough back then. In fact, we did not grant the trophy to the winner of an all Canadian league, shunning the others in USL. We took the USL schedule, make it good for us (including, if I recall correctly, seeking some scheduling adjustments to allow for a balanced V-Cup competition piggy-backing off it.)

So there is no reason to start altering what our criteria is. We gave the Cup to the CSA when they finally got their act together to set up a Canadian Championship, and we accepted they would determine the formula, as all national associations/federations do. 

As many Canadian based teams as possible should participate in the Voyageurs Cup, as I see it, from regional leagues up to MLS, and next year featuring the new CPL teams. The first year, you make a new set up, with seedings and byes. Then, on the basis of results, those seedings and byes could be altered. If an MLS team can-t hold their seed, they slip, if another club does well, they gain a seed. 

Here is a formula:

You have 13 teams, 3+8+2, the final 2 being from the Ontario and Quebec leagues. If other regional leagues get their acts together, they could do similar previous rounds. 

You do the ONT-Quebec tie first, taking you to 12.

Then you give the MLS teams and a CPL club a bye into quarter finals. (In following years, you could adjust byes, that is a different question).

The other 8 teams play off to decide the other 4 quarter finalists. That CPL bye could be Ottawa on the basis of this past year. Or give it to the leader of the CPL come end of May, mid June. That way, leading the CPL after 7-8 games gives you an incentive, it becomes a sort of mini-league rewarding whoever is fastest out the gate. 

Draw the byed teams with the other four winners, for quarter finals. There is a reason for this, being that at least 3 will get an MLS team in a home game, which will draw fans, the gate could be very positive for them. In the other tie two non MLS teams would face each other. Another option: try to do regional ties, to reduce travel costs.

After that, for semis, pure draw.

The calculation on games is this. Your "Blainevilles" would potentially have an 8 game road to the finals. A CPL team, a 6 game path. The teams with byes, a 4 game route. Plus the final. Any winner would have played at least 6 matches before winning the Voyageurs Cup. That would bring us close to what happens in Cup competitions around the world.

 

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6 hours ago, RJB said:

I think this is an embarrassment if this happens.  Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver should be given no special treatment.  They play in an American league, and treat this tournament like an afterthought.  That the league would only get 1 (one!) club in the quarter-finals would be a disgrace, and basically them lying down for MLS.  MLS has made few if any exceptions for Canadian soccer, why should we make exceptions for them?  

I personally don't think that American teams should be allowed in the Voyageurs Cup, but if they are, then they should not be held to a higher esteem than the Canadian clubs.  We have it tough enough to compete with the more established MLS.  

Is it confirmed then that the Canadian Champions League spot will be given to the Voyageurs Cup winner? 

There would most likely be five CPL teams in the Q-F, not one. The exception would be if the L1O or Quebec league winner (who would make up the 12th team) upset a CPL team to make it in. The “one” was referring to one automatic CPL entrant in the q-f. 

The CSA is going to push for a 2nd CCL spot for the CPL league winner, though that might be in the CC league rather than automatically into the final 16 tourney 

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“With the Canadian talent that’s out there, there’s an opportunity to build an MLS-level team in the CPL within the structures that are going to take place,” Gale said. 

Maybe best to actually walk the walk a bit before trying to talk the talk? Comments like that can come back to haunt you.

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You think there isnt an opportunity?  No chance??  With all your inside knowledge of the salaries, rosters structure, team make up etc??  If a CPL rep said that breathing was a good thing would you dispute that as well?  

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On 8/16/2018 at 3:32 PM, mtlsab said:

16 teams: 3 MLS, 8 CPL, 1 L1O, 1 PLSQ, 3 PDL

 

Random draw

 

What do you think about it?

How do you decide which PDL team to leave out? There are 4 and all have confirmed they are continuing play next year.

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There's actually 5 PDL teams aren't there?

Easy enough to get some of the PDL, L1O and PLSQ teams to play in a preliminary round. Think they could keep it mainly regional for the first round to keep travel costs under control.

[[Pacific FC vs-1 Victoria Highlanders

vs-2

Whitecaps vs-1 TSS]

vs-3

[Cavalry vs-1 Foothills

vs-2

Valour vs-1 WSA/Thunder Bay]]

vs-4

[[Forge vs-1 L1O/PLSQ

vs-2

TFC vs York]

vs-3

[Ottawa vs-1 Impact

vs-2

FCE vs-1 Halifax]]

 

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On 7/27/2018 at 2:07 PM, deschamp86 said:

There are no American teams in Voyageurs Cup

According to State of Ohio vs MLS, we have 3 outlets owned by a Delaware based holding company that happen to opperate in our country. 

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