Jump to content
socceronly

What should we do with the Voyageurs forum?

Recommended Posts

I've been looking at forum rules and such and they vary between giant legal tomes and single sentences "like don't be an asshole"

I know there is no legal protection for me no matter what you put in such documents.   I am liable for the shit you nutcases post, which is also why things have to be reigned in. 

In bits and pieces, don't need anyone to take on a whole writing project, what would you suggest the wording of something look like that achieves the following in no particular order....

  • Focus on soccer
  • Implores people to eschew politics
  • Fosters a sense of community
  • To be inquisitive with posts, not to simply take the least charitable interpretation of anything someone says. 
  • In the extreme case, steel-man people's arguments so they are understood and we have real discussions not simply reactions

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, socceronly said:

That could be kind of dangerous and not fair.   

Draw a line in the sand and all... cleaning up stuff yes... but even with people who clearly have borderline personality disorders  or may even add a new chapter in the current DSM V  should get the same rules applied going forward. They just need to be enforced. 

I know you're trying to be fair here but there has been some irreparable damage to the Voyageurs brand via certain posters. I just think that a promise to moderate in the future isn't enough, given that there has never been much moderation to begin with. Why should someone like myself post again if I know that nothing tangible has changed? 

While supporters groups (and forums by extension) should be available to all, in reality they cannot be truly inclusive as there are always outliers who will cause damage just by simply being themselves. I'm learning first hand in Calgary the damage that a few people can do to the supporters scene despite following all the rules outlined in a Code of Conduct. Rather than bring up concerns, they simply leave. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, socceronly said:

Restrict the V's to Canadian Soccer, also create the generic Canadian soccer community for club soccer ect...    It would have a shared log in so one account would work on both.     But this would separate the club bullshit from the national teams and possibly make things more congenial.  We are about to go from a few pro teams to 12 or more, then more after that.   Maybe this split makes sense?

Maybe it does. The Vee's should be about the national teams. We spent years discussing how to improve by creating a pro league. Well it's here now. Leave club soccer and general stuff to a different forum at least at arms length, if not totally independant.

I think you are on to something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, shermanator said:

I know you're trying to be fair here but there has been some irreparable damage to the Voyageurs brand via certain posters. I just think that a promise to moderate in the future isn't enough, given that there has never been much moderation to begin with. Why should someone like myself post again if I know that nothing tangible has changed? 

While supporters groups (and forums by extension) should be available to all, in reality they cannot be truly inclusive as there are always outliers who will cause damage just by simply being themselves. I'm learning first hand in Calgary the damage that a few people can do to the supporters scene despite following all the rules outlined in a Code of Conduct. Rather than bring up concerns, they simply leave. 

I agree with you.   I know first hand the damage all this has caused, and should have acted much sooner.

But to some degree isn't the answer right there?  There was never much moderation to begin with and if you are going to make significant changes to that, it seems fair to draw the line going forward and not retroactively. 

Perhaps I am just being far too agreeable, which I know all to well does help me at all.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ted said:

Maybe it does. The Vee's should be about the national teams. We spent years discussing how to improve by creating a pro league. Well it's here now. Leave club soccer and general stuff to a different forum at least at arms length, if not totally independant.

I think you are on to something.

I'll write up a more detailed idea of what I have in mind and start a separate post. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, socceronly said:

I'll write up a more detailed idea of what I have in mind and start a separate post. 

I think you have to set some high standards for banning (like denying the rwandan genocide or belittling the holocaust) and have tiers of suspension (like 2 day, 4 day, 10 days, ban) relating to trolling and spamming. I know you'll get complaints about free speech but it'll be from the same people who want BBTB and that annoying new guy banned so clearly they don't actually care about it.

You should also delete thread that just don't relate to the subject rather than force the site to be pure Canadian soccer stuff and lock threads for good when they reach say 100 pages and do temporary locks in major circumstances (eg. when Will Johnson was arrested) to make things easier to sort through and prevent 'troubling' comments (eg. trying to justify Johnson's actions).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, matty said:

I think you have to set some high standards for banning (like denying the rwandan genocide or belittling the holocaust) and have tiers of suspension (like 2 day, 4 day, 10 days, ban) relating to trolling and spamming. I know you'll get complaints about free speech but it'll be from the same people who want BBTB and that annoying new guy banned so clearly they don't actually care about it.

You should also delete thread that just don't relate to the subject rather than force the site to be pure Canadian soccer stuff and lock threads for good when they reach say 100 pages and do temporary locks in major circumstances (eg. when Will Johnson was arrested) to make things easier to sort through and prevent 'troubling' comments (eg. trying to justify Johnson's actions).

Yes, but just to be clear, the post you were responding to was wrt splitting the non Canada stuff into a new site. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, socceronly said:

Yes, but just to be clear, the post you were responding to was wrt splitting the non Canada stuff into a new site. 

yea i don't think that's needed i think the current format of the site is fine it's just needs mods. like there are going to be cpl fans who don't care about the canmnt and future canmnt fans who don't care about mls or cpl. i think the forums should remain openish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, socceronly said:

How does the forum help us?
How does the forum hurt us?
How to moderate the forum without a first amendment backlash?

Two immediate forum options. 

  1. Moderate the forum more heavily with an updated and strict set of rules and guidelines for being a community on and off line. 
     
  2. Move the forum to a generic Canadian soccer community, still owned by the V’s to give it an arms length break perception wise.  *keep a small forum on the site for introductions, organizing games, travel & tifo.

The forum helps us in a unifying sense for the Canadian national team, as it enables us to reach people from coast to coast and even beyond Canadian borders to help organize, create a central location for national team discussion and the dissemination of information on Canadian players and Canadian games (particularly when so few are properly televised). This has been difficult in the past with so few games but going forward it would be good to have members of the group in all the cities where we have professional clubs.

How does the forum hurt us? This answer may surprise some, but it's not really conducive to club football and I think this is only going to increase in the future. Most of (what would become) TFC fans who were on this forum when I started left the forum about 12 years ago as they got sick of the then-prevalent Toronto bashing that was going on as Toronto alone initially got an MLS team. There are also a lot of Montreal and Vancouver posters that I can recall posting frequently and even meeting in person.....who rarely post here at all these days or are seemingly long gone, like their Toronto counterparts These groups created their own forums to go to in order to discuss club team games which happen about 30 times more frequently in a given year than our national team seems to play.

With the CPL that's not going to change. I don't know who the masses of CPL people are who detest this forum or why but it seems like the splintering of fans along club lines is just a repeat of what happened 10 years earlier, albeit with different cities. And when the CPL teams start to get their own rivalries going, if there is a large group of fans of those teams posting here there is likely to be even more animosity between the groups if they share the same forum. That happens everywhere, not just here.

I'm not saying that we should remove the MLS and CPL sub-forums - quite the opposite. Just that the more that club loyalties increase, the more that the forum will only really be a unifying force for Canadian national team players and its teams (men and women). As this increases, it just becomes important to make sure that the V's as a group have connections in all of the major soccer centres across the country (basically wherever there is an MLS or CPL team or even a few other markets where a CPL team could still happen). To enable us to mobilize and organize as needed. Having regular men's national team games that mean something will probably help in this regard - we really haven't had that.

I'm not sure that the forum needs to change in itself, other than for greater moderation - although I think that the moderators need to appointed per sub-forum because it requires reading all of the posts in a particular. But we'd need lots of them. In theory I could help moderate the MLS forum for example (assuming that people thought I was a reasonable enough poster - maybe they don't) but I doubt I will ever spend enough time (or have the time) to read all of the non-soccer topic posts or, if I am brutally honest, the women's team forum which I only pop into occasionally, usually when there is a meaningful game/tourney.

Edited by Gian-Luca
Finished a sentence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

The forum helps us in a unifying sense for the Canadian national team, as it enables us to reach people from coast to coast and even beyond Canadian borders to help organize, create a central location for national team discussion and the dissemination of information on Canadian players and Canadian games (particularly when so few are properly televised). This has been difficult in the past with so few games but going forward it would be good to have members of the group in

How does the forum hurt us? This answer may surprise some, but it's not really conducive to club football and I think this is only going to increase in the future. Most of (what would become) TFC fans who were on this forum when I started left the forum about 12 years ago as they got sick of the then-prevalent Toronto bashing that was going on as Toronto alone initially got an MLS team. There are also a lot of Montreal and Vancouver posters that I can recall posting frequently and even meeting in person.....who rarely post here at all these days or are seemingly long gone, like their Toronto counterparts These groups created their own forums to go to in order to discuss club team games which happen about 30 times more frequently in a given year than our national team seems to play.

With the CPL that's not going to change. I don't know who the masses of CPL people are who detest this forum or why but it seems like the splintering of fans along club lines is just a repeat of what happened 10 years earlier, albeit with different cities. And when the CPL teams start to get their own rivalries going, if there is a large group of fans of those teams posting here there is likely to be even more animosity between the groups if they share the same forum. That happens everywhere, not just here.

I'm not saying that we should remove the MLS and CPL sub-forums - quite the opposite. Just that the more that club loyalties increase, the more that the forum will only really be a unifying force for Canadian national team players and its teams (men and women). As this increases, it just becomes important to make sure that the V's as a group have connections in all of the major soccer centres across the country (basically wherever there is an MLS or CPL team or even a few other markets where a CPL team could still happen). To enable us to mobilize and organize as needed. Having regular men's national team games that mean something will probably help in this regard - we really haven't had that.

I'm not sure that the forum needs to change in itself, other than for greater moderation - although I think that the moderators need to appointed per sub-forum because it requires reading all of the posts in a particular. But we'd need lots of them. In theory could help moderate the MLS forum for example (assuming that people thought I was a reasonable enough poster - maybe they don't) but I doubt I will ever spend enough time (or have the time) to read all of the non-soccer topic posts or, if I am brutally honest, the women's team forum which I only pop into occasionally, usually when there is a meaningful game/tourney.

This actually makes me want to split the forum more.

Focus the V's site directly on Canada and event & tifo planning. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, socceronly said:

This actually makes me want to split the forum more.

Focus the V's site directly on Canada and event & tifo planning.

There is one thing I forgot to mention - this ought to be the top site for discussion of the Voyageurs Cup. I mean, with a name like that how can it not be? And that will involve 11 clubs soon. Despite the rivalry aspect of it, I think that's another potential area for unification across the country.

My suggestion is to let certain things happen organically - I could be wrong that most fans will prefer and spend more time in separate forums for club teams (or different supporter groups for club teams). Either way, I think retaining the sub-forums - even if the focus naturally shifts towards the national team and event planning - is still a good idea, particularly for those who may not end up having a local CPL/MLS team but are still interested in discussing them.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A good example of some of the crap that is on this board every day, take a look at the posts today from the MOACA thread. It's petty crap like this that I was talking about earlier. And I know that I have in the past been a part of the problem; I have been no shining example to follow on this type of thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, shermanator said:

A good example of some of the crap that is on this board every day, take a look at the posts today from the MOACA thread. It's petty crap like this that I was talking about earlier. And I know that I have in the past been a part of the problem; I have been no shining example to follow on this type of thing.

Right. 

I am writing up a set of Principles / Rules.  I'll post them here tomorrow or Wednesday.  Want to re read them a few times to make sure I am not insane or trying to be too agreeable which I need to change personally. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy crap. I have the guy on ignore already, now he is sending personal messages too? I changed my settings so those are ignored also, but this has gone too far now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part of the issue is simply the different kinds of things that are a turn off about the forum as it currently exists.  Rather than tactfully dance around the topic, I will point out a few examples of stuff I think is over the top or unwanted, but for different reasons.

At the height of CPL excitement, and many times since things became very very real, BBTB's constant pessimism really drove people nuts.  

Currentl, tg11 is making about 50 Captain Obvious posts every single day.  The volume of posts that say next to nothing is effectively spamming the entire board.

Robert's diatribes range from just plain nuts to outright offensive (like the latest incarnation of Godwin's law).

i mention these not to be a dick (though I have called them each out on it in the past - maybe part of the problem...?) but because I am not sure how much you can simply moderate that range of undersirable activity out of existence.  The Nazi BS, of course - but that is the low hanging fruit in the equation.  But posting a massive amount of things that add little value, or posting a frequently dissenting opinion when everyone else is trying to enjoy the moment - those are pretty hard to limit in a way that still allows an open forum.  In some ways, forums are (by nature) an area where you are going to encounter that stuff.  Not helpful I know, but I don't see a way around it without a lot more strict guidelines and modding.

The option of splitting off the forum is, to me, the most promising.  I will be honest, it is the only portion of the site I use with any frequency.  I get news, shoot the proverbial shit, etc.  If it is not only not an attractive part of the overall site, but is actually driving people away, to me there is a very strong argument for severing it from the other functions.  The only thing to be cautious about is just how much traffic is tied to the forum (open question, not presupposing the answer).  In my case, without the forum I would be an extremely infrequent visitor.  And knowing whether or not that is a rare or common situation would seem to be an important bit if intel to inform any fairly significant structural changes.

Either way, thanks for everything you do on here.  Sincerely.  This is still my favourite hangout.  And whether it is here or somewhere else, I will stick around as long as I am welcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Part of the issue is simply the different kinds of things that are a turn off about the forum as it currently exists.  Rather than tactfully dance around the topic, I will point out a few examples of stuff I think is over the top or unwanted, but for different reasons.

At the height of CPL excitement, and many times since things became very very real, BBTB's constant pessimism really drove people nuts.  

Currentl, tg11 is making about 50 Captain Obvious posts every single day.  The volume of posts that say next to nothing is effectively spamming the entire board.

Robert's diatribes range from just plain nuts to outright offensive (like the latest incarnation of Godwin's law).

i mention these not to be a dick (though I have called them each out on it in the past - maybe part of the problem...?) but because I am not sure how much you can simply moderate that range of undersirable activity out of existence.  The Nazi BS, of course - but that is the low hanging fruit in the equation.  But posting a massive amount of things that add little value, or posting a frequently dissenting opinion when everyone else is trying to enjoy the moment - those are pretty hard to limit in a way that still allows an open forum.  In some ways, forums are (by nature) an area where you are going to encounter that stuff.  Not helpful I know, but I don't see a way around it without a lot more strict guidelines and modding.

The option of splitting off the forum is, to me, the most promising.  I will be honest, it is the only portion of the site I use with any frequency.  I get news, shoot the proverbial shit, etc.  If it is not only not an attractive part of the overall site, but is actually driving people away, to me there is a very strong argument for severing it from the other functions.  The only thing to be cautious about is just how much traffic is tied to the forum (open question, not presupposing the answer).  In my case, without the forum I would be an extremely infrequent visitor.  And knowing whether or not that is a rare or common situation would seem to be an important bit if intel to inform any fairly significant structural changes.

Either way, thanks for everything you do on here.  Sincerely.  This is still my favourite hangout.  And whether it is here or somewhere else, I will stick around as long as I am welcome.

Yes, BBTB's relentless negativity in that period is one of the most destructive things this forum has seen.  It was utterly relentless and I can count many many  long time posters who left because of it.  It made things un fun, which is the only point of all of this. 

Trying to reign TG11 in in a positive way.   I even wonder if it's an AI bot at times. 

The forum is the only active part of the site really at this point so that makes sense.  The splitting off part would be a topic split I think at this point.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I post abouty 95% useful, have been doing so for two decades almost, and get plenty of likes for it. Then 5% shitposts and rabble rouse. This is my personality. I am a highly functional responsible person, responsible for literally hundreds of other individuals' lives in real life, who occasionally gets irate and tends to criticize in a way that is biting and even personal. Sometimes I regret it and go oh well, there I go again; sometimes I think the objects of my ire totally deserve it.

Now if you think on a soccer forum you are going to get a single type personality and no heated debate, the whole point of a forum is a waste of time, IMO. Better to go watch synchronised swimming. Canadian soccer is basically in a very poor state, in terms of national team, and until the CPL we had a pathetic club situation, one of the worst if not THE worst in the world. So a bit of rage was perfectly justified as I see it, as a general condition. 

That said, as I see it,  Jamie has carried the weight of the forum for a few years now and I think he should delegate a bit more, like in moderating. I have rarely bitched about being reprimanded, or even banned, which I think happened like 8 years ago. It was fine, I softened the tone a bit. I'm better than I used to be.

So moderate it, and don't overthink it.

I think it is an error to want the whole forum to be conditioned for public image, as if a single post were to affect the branding of the whole; if that sort of conformity is required, the whole proposition is screwed. If we apply that rule, how can we possibly expect a fiery supporter group to hold up against any prissy ownership group in CPL? They'll chant one f-word to an opposing keeper, the club will say their brand is being affected by the SG, and they'll get banned. And when the SG complains, the club could say, if they were "shrewd" enough, that they were doing the same thing the Voyageurs board does.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I post abouty 95% useful, have been doing so for two decades almost, and get plenty of likes for it. Then 5% shitposts and rabble rouse. This is my personality. I am a highly functional responsible person, responsible for literally hundreds of other individuals' lives in real life, who occasionally gets irate and tends to criticize in a way that is biting and even personal. Sometimes I regret it and go oh well, there I go again; sometimes I think the objects of my ire totally deserve it.

Now if you think on a soccer forum you are going to get a single type personality and no heated debate, the whole point of a forum is a waste of time, IMO. Better to go watch synchronised swimming. Canadian soccer is basically in a very poor state, in terms of national team, and until the CPL we had a pathetic club situation, one of the worst if not THE worst in the world. So a bit of rage was perfectly justified as I see it, as a general condition. 

That said, as I see it,  Jamie has carried the weight of the forum for a few years now and I think he should delegate a bit more, like in moderating. I have rarely bitched about being reprimanded, or even banned, which I think happened like 8 years ago. It was fine, I softened the tone a bit. I'm better than I used to be.

So moderate it, and don't overthink it.

I think it is an error to want the whole forum to be conditioned for public image, as if a single post were to affect the branding of the whole; if that sort of conformity is required, the whole proposition is screwed. If we apply that rule, how can we possibly expect a fiery supporter group to hold up against any prissy ownership group in CPL? They'll chant one f-word to an opposing keeper, the club will say their brand is being affected by the SG, and they'll get banned. And when the SG complains, the club could say, if they were "shrewd" enough, that they were doing the same thing the Voyageurs board does.

 

 

On my phone, so being brief. I hope what I'm saying does not appear this way.

 By no means am I pushing sanitization.

Critical, even wickedly so, relentlessly negative and bat shit crazy are not all the same.

Need more of the first, less of the latter

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this forum should go to a place where it's strictly and only discussions and debates about the following:

Mens National Team, Womens National Team, Youth National Teams, The Voyaguers Cup (only place to talk club soccer/ have a banter), and Players (professional Canadian players).

That means getting rid of the following sub-forums:

CanPL (we've all done our job in getting this started, supporter forums will begin to arise and be the main source for specific club talk)MLS, NASL, World Soccer, FIFA World Cup type subforums.

In doing so to me, it would save bandwidth(cost) and the need for multiple moderators(expected time). 

I also think we should introduce a tier member type level, which would consist of welcome like packages (t shirt or scarves) and regulate your ability to post based on your tier. 

 

Some ideas...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

I think this forum should go to a place where it's strictly and only discussions and debates about the following:

Mens National Team, Womens National Team, Youth National Teams, The Voyaguers Cup (only place to talk club soccer/ have a banter), and Players (professional Canadian players).

That means getting rid of the following sub-forums:

CanPL (we've all done our job in getting this started, supporter forums will begin to arise and be the main source for specific club talk)MLS, NASL, World Soccer, FIFA World Cup type subforums.

Well NASL should probably be deleted anyway if we have all of our pro clubs in either MLS or CPL, but I'm more inclined to let those other sub forums exist as is or combine some of them because I think what will naturally happen is that many new fans will flock to the club forums (as has happened in MLS) but the people who visit here to talk about the National team will still want to talk about those clubs, especially if they have national teamers on them (which will definitely be the case for MLS and is bound to also be the case for CPL, even if its speculation on who is playing well/tearing up the league so as to warrant a National team selection).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

but the people who visit here to talk about the National team will still want to talk about those clubs, especially if they have national teamers on them (which will definitely be the case for MLS and is bound to also be the case for CPL, even if its speculation on who is playing well/tearing up the league so as to warrant a National team selection).

 

But it becomes redundant. If Alphonso Davies has a good game, you'll see that there's more conversation in his thread versus the VWFC 2018 thread....but okay I digress, keep the CanPL thread...the rest can gooooo especially the MLS one since there's 10 players playing between the 3 teams. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

But it becomes redundant. If Alphonso Davies has a good game, you'll see that there's more conversation in his thread versus the VWFC 2018 thread....but okay I digress, keep the CanPL thread...the rest can gooooo especially the MLS one since there's 10 players playing between the 3 teams. 

There's more than 10 Canadian players on the three MLS teams (TFC have 7 alone getting decent minutes this year, leaving out Daniels & Dunn who are also on the first team) and there are also other Canadian players on other MLS teams and then you also have TFC2 with a ton of Canadian players. The TFC2 discussion could be moved into the MLS teams forum in future, for example because they don't belong in the CPL and we won't need a USL forum just for TFC2.

But this is beside the point because I mentioned that posters in this forum who post regularly who are interested in the national team from Canada's 3 biggest cities are likely going to want to also have a place - in the same forum - to talk about the local clubs, who are always going to feature some Canadians. You mention the Davies thread - there is already a ton of off-topic posts in that thread, would you prefer to have general Whitecap discussion among the National team supporters taking up space and sidetracking in a thread about him or Doneil Henry or their next prospects coming through the system or would you prefer to have that discussion taking place in a thread dedicated to the Whitecaps? I don't think banning general discussion about Canadian MLS teams or CPL in this forum should be an option which leaves us with the other two - more off-topic posts in a player thread or continued on topic discussion in the dedicated club thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, socceronly said:


How to moderate the forum without a first amendment backlash?

There's no such thing as the 'first amendment' in this country, so let's let moderators do what they do.  

For me, I'd go with option one.  Being old, and not understanding the modern world of 'do and say what you want, no matter how it makes other people feel,' I wouldn't mind a strict set of rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×