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harrycoyster

General Discussion on Canadian Youth Teams

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47 minutes ago, Ivan said:

I think we should stand firm and not let players our clubs have developed get away for nothing.  Money invested in academies should be recoverable.  This will be very important for the CPL.

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2 hours ago, Keegan said:

I think some are missing the point here.  

American youth clubs = zero compensation 

Canadian youth clubs = compensation

I don't think it's quite that simple. MLS clubs could be signing many of these kids to professional contracts prior to them turning 18 and maintain rights on them. For some reason that seems to not be happening. Is it the players being smarter, the clubs being dumber or is the USSF backroom-comping the clubs?

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6 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

I don't think it's quite that simple. MLS clubs could be signing many of these kids to professional contracts prior to them turning 18 and maintain rights on them. For some reason that seems to not be happening. Is it the players being smarter, the clubs being dumber or is the USSF backroom-comping the clubs?

Yes but then they wouldn’t be youth players and wouldn’t be free for bigger European clubs.  So sign an mls deal or for a big European club?  Pretty easy choice until mls shows that it is willing to move players on for reasonable prices and pay young players their fair value.  MLS is very careful on the precedents it sets.. one of the reasons Larin and Morris took another year to come in the league was that they didn’t want to shell out the money the players wanted.  

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8 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Yes but then they wouldn’t be youth players and wouldn’t be free for bigger European clubs.  So sign an mls deal or for a big European club?  Pretty easy choice until mls shows that it is willing to move players on for reasonable prices and pay young players their fair value.

That's the point. Canadian MLS clubs are signing their top prospects to pro contracts, but the American ones are not. So what's the difference? 

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2 hours ago, Keegan said:

Ultimately mls will have to align itself with soccernomics if it ever wants to be a truly top league but will that ever happen?  It’s hard to imagine.

It’s a USSF call more than it is an MLS one.  But I don’t foresee the USSF conforming to soccernomics as it has disasterous consequences on the college game. Plus, as long as it doesn’t effect the development model, why would the USSF care if Tim Weah is at PSG now instead of RBNY or if Weston McKennie left FC Dallas  to go to Schalke for free....the current system is working great from a USMNT perspective. 

The question is does that short term gain end up discouraging sinking money into development? While I want to say it will, to me it looks like most MLS teams are fine with kids they developed leaving for free. FC Dallas is the only team that has ever filed a complaint with USSF. 

I wonder if there is a middle ground where we can get our best players over to Europe at 16-18 without discouraging spending on academies.

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1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

That's the point. Canadian MLS clubs are signing their top prospects to pro contracts, but the American ones are not. So what's the difference? 

The difference is the players have more leverage down there.  They have other options and can make more money elsewhere and not be stuck in mls such as Weston McKennie.  Our players seemingly don’t have these other options at times so they are easier to sign.

Edited by Keegan

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8 minutes ago, Keegan said:

The difference is the players have more leverage down there.  They have other options and can make more money elsewhere and not be stuck in mls such as Weston McKennie.  Our players seemingly don’t have these other options at times so they are easier to sign.

What makes you think that? Where would they make any money prior to age 18? I'm talking about players of equal ability under age 18, one in Canada and the other in the US. Why does one sign with his CDN club (Tabla, Davies, Akinola, Okello etc.) and the other holds out and then bails after turning 18. 

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7 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

What makes you think that? Where would they make any money prior to age 18? I'm talking about players of equal ability under age 18, one in Canada and the other in the US. Why does one sign with his CDN club (Tabla, Davies, Akinola, Okello etc.) and the other holds out and then bails after turning 18. 

And this is what I’m trying to explain.  MLS isn’t a great league if you have aspirations of moving on - why risk a league deciding your future when you can wait a few months and sign for a club like Schalke and make more money off the bat then you would in MLS in 3 years?  It’s the norm for top American prospects these days. 

Keep in mind these guys also have the added benefit of starring in youth world cups for the USA.. whereas our guys get scarce international exposure.

Edited by Keegan

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24 minutes ago, Keegan said:

And this is what I’m trying to explain.  MLS isn’t a great league if you have aspirations of moving on - why risk a league deciding your future when you can wait a few months and sign for a club like Schalke and make more money off the bat then you would in MLS in 3 years?  It’s the norm for top American prospects these days. 

Keep in mind these guys also have the added benefit of starring in youth world cups for the USA.. whereas our guys get scarce international exposure.

I know that! But why the difference on both sides of the border? How are CDN clubs convincing their kids to sign and American clubs not able to? 

My take: I think most American MLS clubs are actually signing alot of their top prospects. Tyler Adams, Josh Sargent, the LA Galaxy kids, FCD too. I think a well run club keeps a lot of their best, but sometimes they get away ie. RSL kids. With LA or FCD you can't sign all of them, so the ones who would go to other clubs can't because of MLS rules and instead of going to college are signing in Europe as ringers for next years U19 teams. Then after a few years of reserve and loans they'll be back in MLS.

In Canada i just don't think there are that many kids that fit in that same category. Plus our clubs are mostly well-run, relatively speaking. Impact fans might not agree but your FO somehow convinced Tabla to sign a 2-yr deal 5 months before his 18th bday.

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1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

I know that! But why the difference on both sides of the border? How are CDN clubs convincing their kids to sign and American clubs not able to? 

My take: I think most American MLS clubs are actually signing alot of their top prospects. Tyler Adams, Josh Sargent, the LA Galaxy kids, FCD too. I think a well run club keeps a lot of their best, but sometimes they get away ie. RSL kids. With LA or FCD you can't sign all of them, so the ones who would go to other clubs can't because of MLS rules and instead of going to college are signing in Europe as ringers for next years U19 teams. Then after a few years of reserve and loans they'll be back in MLS.

In Canada i just don't think there are that many kids that fit in that same category. Plus our clubs are mostly well-run, relatively speaking. Impact fans might not agree but your FO somehow convinced Tabla to sign a 2-yr deal 5 months before his 18th bday.

Its more than American teams just not signing their best young players. There seems to be an expectation that the best young American players should go overseas and the clubs make that pathway as easy as possible. Look at Gio Reyna. His dad is literally the sporting director at NYCFC. If the team demanded he sign, I’m sure they’d have him tomorrow.

Instead, Reyna is joining Borussia Dortmund as soon as he gets his Italian passport. Is NYCFC playing hardball with him to get him under contract? Quite the opposite. He’s captaining the u19s at 15, his Adidas advertisment plays during every NYCFC game (even at halftime in the stadium), and he is advertised to other youth players as the example of the NYCFC youth academy’s development prowess. Meanwhile, they’ll receive zero training compensation or solidarity payments from Dortmund. So Dortmund not only gets the player for free, THEY get full compensation for his transfers for the rest of his career.

Edited by harrycoyster

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So not to be cynical, but NYCFC are not signing Reyna and losing potentially millions of dollars because they are just good guys??  Are they hoping his success story will bring in the next generation of best youngsters??  If he was signed would Dortmund have no interest in him??  Thats a terrible situation for an organization who spends a lot on a academy and not get some modest return on developing a young star, only to have Dortmond reap the rewards.  

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22 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

So not to be cynical, but NYCFC are not signing Reyna and losing potentially millions of dollars because they are just good guys??  Are they hoping his success story will bring in the next generation of best youngsters??  If he was signed would Dortmund have no interest in him??  Thats a terrible situation for an organization who spends a lot on a academy and not get some modest return on developing a young star, only to have Dortmond reap the rewards.  

It's not that NYCFC is thrilled he is leaving. It's moreso that the MLS clubs are bending to USSF expectations. Jurgen Klinsmann did everything possible to get Americans to Europe, including personally finding their best young players landing spots in Germany and hosting German clubs at US youth games. It's not exactly a coincidence that Schalke, the German club Klinsmann has endless contacts in, has averaged signing one American youth player a year since 2013 after signing zero in the club's existence before Klinsmann took over the USMNT. Jurgen thoroughly believed that the US wouldn't be truly competitive with the world's top teams until they had young players playing at the top level.

Klinsmann is gone, but USSF coaches still push u17 and u20 stars to get to Europe as soon as possible. Josh Sargent decided not to accept a SKC homegrown deal after talking to Tab Ramos, the u20 USMNT coach, who promised to keep him busy until he could go to Europe at 18. Of course now that Pulisic, Sargent, McKennie, and Weah are bonafide USMNT players as teenagers, the pressure comes from the other side as well. Why would u17 players like Taylor Booth and Richie Ledezma sign for RSL, who haven't regularly produced USMNT calibre players, when they are being courted by Bayern Munich and PSV, who regularly produce USMNT calibre players?

Of the five best talents the US has under the age of 18, the only one that is signed to an MLS contract is the one who is currently playing for Mexican youth teams. The only one the USSF wants to stay in the States is the one that they need to convert. 

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3 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Its more than American teams just not signing their best young players. There seems to be an expectation that the best young American players should go overseas and the clubs make that pathway as easy as possible. Look at Gio Reyna. His dad is literally the sporting director at NYCFC. If the team demanded he sign, I’m sure they’d have him tomorrow.

Instead, Reyna is joining Borussia Dortmund as soon as he gets his Italian passport. Is NYCFC playing hardball with him to get him under contract? Quite the opposite. He’s captaining the u19s at 15, his Adidas advertisment plays during every NYCFC game (even at halftime in the stadium), and he is advertised to other youth players as the example of the NYCFC youth academy’s development prowess. Meanwhile, they’ll receive zero training compensation or solidarity payments from Dortmund. So Dortmund not only gets the player for free, THEY get full compensation for his transfers for the rest of his career.

Ok, but this is a different situation than 18 yr olds walking away w/out signing a contract. Any good player with an EU passport is as good as gone way before he turns 18. It happens everywhere, look at TFC losing Ferreira and that Croatian kid a few years back...might be other examples that i can't remember.

So as you allude in your response to Bison basically the USSF is screwing over MLS clubs by removing their comp. rights (which is against FIFA rules) and even promoting the exodus. If i own an MLS club i'm asking serious questions about why i'm spending 7 figures for next to no return. Is the USSF providing some funding elsewhere that justifies what is happening?

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Isnt that cutting off your nose to spite your face?  USSF are taking kids developed in MLS academies and helping them make an end run around the american academies into europe?  If the academies get all the best kids poached (for free) then it wont take long for them to realize its not really in their best interests to pour all the money into them.  I guess that helps these kids today but it doesnt seem like a sustainable model for the pro clubs running academies in USA.  And shouldnt an academy that has had a kid for his formative years get some sort of recompense?? Isnt that what happens in europe?  Didnt Brampton get some sort of payment when Henry signed for West Ham??

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49 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

If i own an MLS club i'm asking serious questions about why i'm spending 7 figures for next to no return. Is the USSF providing some funding elsewhere that justifies what is happening?

That’s what I’d think as well, but American academy investment has skyrocketed in the last few years. The only funding that the USSF has specifically for academies is the youth discovery program, which gives $10,000 a year for 3 years to the team after a player developed in their academy gets a USMNT senior cap.

 

52 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

And shouldnt an academy that has had a kid for his formative years get some sort of recompense?? Isnt that what happens in europe?  Didnt Brampton get some sort of payment when Henry signed for West Ham??

Yes, yes and yes. The USSF, and therefore the United States, purposely doesn’t follow the international rules, largely because it doesn’t mesh with NCAA rules. If the USSF adopted the international standards, the NCAA could rule that MLS academy players are monetized and aren’t eligible for college soccer. If the NCAA does embrace the rules, MLS/USL could be on the hook for millions a year in solidarity payments to NCAA schools. 

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1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

That’s what I’d think as well, but American academy investment has skyrocketed in the last few years. The only funding that the USSF has specifically for academies is the youth discovery program, which gives $10,000 a year for 3 years to the team after a player developed in their academy gets a USMNT senior cap.

 

Yes, yes and yes. The USSF, and therefore the United States, purposely doesn’t follow the international rules, largely because it doesn’t mesh with NCAA rules. If the USSF adopted the international standards, the NCAA could rule that MLS academy players are monetized and aren’t eligible for college soccer. If the NCAA does embrace the rules, MLS/USL could be on the hook for millions a year in solidarity payments to NCAA schools. 

Sorry but this just isn’t right.  How then do you explain every player who has gone from professional academies where those rules are in place to ncaa (ie Jack Harrison) that debunks your theory.  MLS does what they do for one reason .. $$$.  To them it’s more important to keep salaries in check than to lose a few prospects.

Im sure it pisses the hell out of MLS teams but you can’t and won’t be able to pay a youth player what they’re truly worth out of the gate.  Even look at Jordan Morris, a USMNT regular who they fought with and eventually got a record deal but still well below the going rate of a USMNT striker.

Its all business.  That’s all this is risk and reward. It’s no different than the NHL where they have max rookie deals - only difference is these kids have alternatives and MLS is far from the best league.

Edited by Keegan

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17 hours ago, Keegan said:

Sorry but this just isn’t right.  How then do you explain every player who has gone from professional academies where those rules are in place to ncaa (ie Jack Harrison) that debunks your theory.

Jack Harrison had left Man United years before going into the NCAA. It’s not an issue if the player is no longer attached to their professional academy. For the NCAA, the issue arises when the player’s rights are held by a professional team.

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13 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Jack Harrison had left Man United years before going into the NCAA. It’s not an issue if the player is no longer attached to their professional academy. For the NCAA, the issue arises when the player’s rights are held by a professional team.

No you are wrong there. I have not seen any issues with players be signed to homegrown deals for example Jay Chapman went through this a few years back. He played several years in college and was signed by TFC. Don't know where you getting this from. Many players from MLS academies go to college and instead of joining league through draft they're signed to HD. Typically players outside MLS academies are now in the draft unless HG players are not signed by team which has happened.

Edited by Scorpion26

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7 minutes ago, Scorpion26 said:

No you are wrong there. I have not seen any issues with players be signed to homegrown deals for example Jay Chapman went through this a few years back. He played several years in college and was signed by TFC. Don't know where you getting this from. Many players from MLS academies go to college and instead of joining league through draft they're signed to HD. Typically players outside MLS academies are now in the draft unless HG players are not signed by team which has happened.

I think you’re missing the point. MLS teams are the exception to the NCAA rules because of the agreement between the league and NCAA (which sets GA and draft rules, among other things). Only MLS teams can send players to college and maintain that players rights. Players from all other teams need to sign an article of separation stating that they are non-professionals and do not have an ongoing relationship with a professional organization. Even then many non-American/Canadian players who think they are NCAA eligible end up not being able to play because an NCAA employee discovers they were involved in a transfer of some kind. It happens to multiple players every year.

What I’m saying is that the MLS/NCAA agreement is partially built upon MLS academies not making money directly from youth players and makes the USSF adopting world soccer economics difficult.

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1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

Jack Harrison had left Man United years before going into the NCAA. It’s not an issue if the player is no longer attached to their professional academy. For the NCAA, the issue arises when the player’s rights are held by a professional team.

So what is your explanation for Joao Moutinho or Julian Gressler or Axel Sjoberg?  All came directly from clubs youth or full team to move to NCAA.  Mate, quit making things up... if having your rights held is an issue then why are NHL drafted players with their rights held able to play in NCAA?

As I keep telling you, it’s not to do with NCAA... everything is to do with MLS not wanting to change its business model.  How many players come out of ncaa per year?  You think those guys are more valuable than the same amount of players they lose per year to European teams?  USSF knows MLS business model so in all likelihood made it so that these kids can get signed to their value overseas and MLS gets to keep running the way it chooses.  MLS teams probably like the rule as well because it affects private academies more so than them.

Edited by Keegan

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43 minutes ago, socceronly said:

I thought some time ago 'pro' status was revoked after a month, whereas before it was much more difficult to back to college. 

It’s considerably more complicated than that, though it’s definitely a less difficult process today than it was ten years ago.

I’ve seen players loose amateur eligibility over having agents, accepting tournament prize money, traveling with a professional team and more. Recall one case were a French player’seligibility at a DI school was delayed a year because his youth team went on a funded retreat to Spain for a week. Because he didn’t pay and the trip wasn’t athletic in nature the NCAA ruled the trip a form of prize money. The rule book on what is and isn’t a “pro” activity is both immense and ever-changing.

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3 minutes ago, Keegan said:

So what is your explanation for Joao Moutinho or Julian Gressler or Axel Sjoberg?  All came directly from clubs youth or full team to move to NCAA.

All were able to produce signed documentation stating they have no longer have any relationship with their previous team. The NCAA is fine with youth players partaking in the European system, as long as the team doesn’t maintain the rights to the players while they are in college.

 

6 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Mate, quit making things up... if having your rights held is an issue then why are NHL drafted players with their rights held able to play in the NCAA?

 I literally work in a DI NCAA athletic department. I’m not saying anything that hasn’t been explained to me by a professional NCAA eligibility coordinator. Again, the NCAA plays hard and fast with the rules. What mandates professional status and professional relationships changes in every sport and the NCAA has specific unique contracts with every domestic professional league defining these things.

 

12 minutes ago, Keegan said:

As I keep telling you, it’s not to do with NCAA... everything is to do with MLS not wanting to change its business model.  How many players come out of ncaa per year?  You think those guys are more valuable than the same amount of players they lose per year to European teams?  USSF knows MLS business model so in all likelihood made it so that these kids can get signed to their value overseas and MLS gets to keep running the way it chooses.  MLS teams probably like the rule as well because it affects private academies more so than them.

That’s at least partially true and entirely possible, but the NCAA rules are also part of the equation.

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I mean all I can do is take your word that you were told that.. but keep in mind MLS/USSF was also peddling that Canadians couldn’t be domestic on US rosters for a while so what you were told doesn’t make it true and it may just be policy. 

We can probably get a simple answer by asking the following: does anyone know if Sigma received compensation when he was sold to Besiktas? 

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2 hours ago, Keegan said:

does anyone know if Sigma received compensation when he was sold to Besiktas? 

Yes and no. Sigma’s business model is semi-reliant on the NCAA and they have long figured out how to avoid violation issues. Basically, Sigma did not receive any compensation directly from the transfer. However, they have an agreement with Larin for his representation rights. So Larin’s agent, Costa Smyrniotis, is a Sigma employee. So Sigma received compensation through Smyrniotis’ agent fee, but not through the traditional avenue.

EDIT: Forgive my spelling errors. I’m still laughably bad at using touch keyboards.

Edited by harrycoyster

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