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CONCACAF U-20 Championship (November 2018)

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47 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I know people have debated bringing the young guys from the senior side into the U20s, with one argument being that it is better to focus on senior side at the moment, but I don't really see it as an either/or.  Yes, Nations League qualifying is a huge priority, and we absolutely want to do what it takes to make League A - but in the longer term what benefits the U20s will absolutely benefit the senior squad.

During the 2022 WC, the guys on our U20 squad will actually be 22 and 23 years old.  It is likely that some of those not yet making the CMNT squad will step up and play a more senior role in that timeframe.  And by 2026, this cohort will be the core of our senior national team.  The significance of that can't be understated.  Recognizing that some low profile guys may step up, and a couple of dual nationals may be recruited, the reality is that the bulk of our U20 cohort will be the ones representing us  in 2026.  Building chemistry among these guys, and getting them as much big game experience as possible - at all levels - has to be a big priority for the CSA.

I am not saying we should sacrifice the present for the future at the senior level, but the health of our present U20's is a crucial part of our success for the next 2 cycles - and especially for the "big show" in 2026.   

Well said !!! 

i still don’t get why people think we can’t  slaughter St.kitts without Ballou,Busti , Davies, David, Millar. We still got : Arfield, Hoilett, Larin, Cavallini, Ricketts,Hutch, Wotherspoon,Edwards, Chapman, Osorio, Jackson-Hamel, Borjan and many more! 

We will be just fine without those guys. We have pretty good depth now! Time to  embrace the depth!

Edited by SpecialK

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7 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

Our senior team with no u20s is still very solid.

Borjan

Cornelius Henry De Jong

Hutchinson Piette

Hoilett Osorio Arfield

Larin Cavallini

No reason to hold back any of the u20 guys.

 

I have to agree - this absolutely should be enough to get the job done comfortably in St K&N.  Heck, that is still a much stronger line-up than we have been able to field during most of the last 5-10 years.

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13 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

Our senior team with no u20s is still very solid.

Borjan

Cornelius Henry De Jong

Hutchinson Piette

Hoilett Osorio Arfield

Larin Cavallini

No reason to hold back any of the u20 guys.

 

 

I agree, you even have some other dynamic players who could come off the bench like Edwards (who is forgotten right now), ricketts, Akindele, Fisk, etc... 

Edited by BenFisk'sBiggestFan

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I was looking ahead to the tourney dates:

  • The U20 WC is May 23-June 15 in 2019.
  • The Gold Cup is June 15-July 7 in 2019.

That means that the individual players discussed above wouldn't be playing in both tourneys.  I mention this because it would seem odd to pump up our U20 squad in an effort to get them qualified, and then rip out some of those same key players that helped get theme there so that they could participate in the Gold Cup.  Basically, when I was advocating for all of the young guys to hit the U20 qualifying games instead of going to St Kitts, I wasn't considering that we might also basically be choosing whether an individual goes to the U20 WC or the GC next year.  That seems to complicate things. 

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Well, chances are we aren’t going to the U20 World Cup final.  Remember the Gold Cup also allows for changes after the group stage.. since none of our main u20 guys are in MLS we can make it work.  

Lets just see if we qualify for the u20 World Cup first though. 

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9 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Well, chances are we aren’t going to the U20 World Cup final.  Remember the Gold Cup also allows for changes after the group stage.. since none of our main u20 guys are in MLS we can make it work.  

Lets just see if we qualify for the u20 World Cup first though. 

So the idea would be:

- Have the guys in question qualify for the U20WC

- Let them compete in the U20WC if they make it

- Have a select few join up with the GC squad during the later stages.

I like it.  As long as that isn't too taxing (or inviting injury) the timing would let players get a bit rested before the European seasons start.  They might not have a huge preseason, but the clubs would presumably recognize the value in this - and it wouldn't be much different than simply having players go to the GC. 

I just wonder if Herman would be willing to omit guys these guys at the start of the GC.  That will have more attention than the NL qualifiers, and could arguably be the first high profile games that will really challenge us.  He may want to go full strength from day one.  

 

Edit:   It is just an odd position to be in where such a decent core group of our men's team is eligible for our U20 tourney.  I can't think of another time like this.  But it does bode well for the future...

Edited by dyslexic nam

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Why not qualify using our best and create an opportunity for more U20 players to get experience and exposure at the u20 World Cup. Davies, Tabla, Busti etc are already well on their way. Why not use their talents to create a platform for other players.

Edited by SpursFlu

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1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I was looking ahead to the tourney dates:

  • The U20 WC is May 23-June 15 in 2019.
  • The Gold Cup is June 15-July 7 in 2019.

That means that the individual players discussed above wouldn't be playing in both tourneys.  I mention this because it would seem odd to pump up our U20 squad in an effort to get them qualified, and then rip out some of those same key players that helped get theme there so that they could participate in the Gold Cup. 

Personally I would rather see those guys go to The U-20 World Cup

I honestly believe that this group can compete and perhaps achieve something there 

They can play in many other Gold Cups, But only one U20 WC

Worst case scenario you recall 2/3 for the knockout Stage 

These 4 (Millar, Tabla, Davies, David) can be replaced by Akindele, MAK, Edwards, Jackson-Hamel etc 

There’s really no worry 

It’s good for their development, they need to establish themselves in Europe 

Historically after this tournament there’s always Transfers/Loans that occur

Can only benefit them!

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14 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

I hate to sound soulless, but in my opinion could it come down to money? Does anyone if there is any prize money involved in the U20 World Cup and Gold Cup?

Yes there is. Not to mention a situation like Davies in which the Whitecaps have said the interest in him really picked up after the last gold cup. Prize money there ended up being 22 million dollars

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A big consideration is that professional players do not have to be released by their clubs for youth tournaments. Many clubs are happy to do it in Europe, as many of the players are not even on the bench for their clubs, but many of our best youth players are. There are few brownie points for any club, even those in Canada, if they release thier players voluntarily for non-required duty to Canada's national sides. 

Edited by beachesl

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On 10/19/2018 at 7:09 AM, dyslexic nam said:

I know people have debated bringing the young guys from the senior side into the U20s, with one argument being that it is better to focus on senior side at the moment, but I don't really see it as an either/or.  Yes, Nations League qualifying is a huge priority, and we absolutely want to do what it takes to make League A - but in the longer term what benefits the U20s will absolutely benefit the senior squad.

During the 2022 WC, the guys on our U20 squad will actually be 22 and 23 years old.  It is likely that some of those not yet making the CMNT squad will step up and play a more senior role in that timeframe.  And by 2026, this cohort will be the core of our senior national team.  The significance of that can't be understated.  Recognizing that some low profile guys may step up, and a couple of dual nationals may be recruited, the reality is that the bulk of our U20 cohort will be the ones representing us  in 2026.  Building chemistry among these guys, and getting them as much big game experience as possible - at all levels - has to be a big priority for the CSA.

I am not saying we should sacrifice the present for the future at the senior level, but the health of our present U20's is a crucial part of our success for the next 2 cycles - and especially for the "big show" in 2026.   

Some of those guys may not even get a chance with the U20 squad if we bring our best down from the senior national team. There would be at least 5 spots being taken by players we already know can play on the senior team.

Remember, Alphonso and others increases our chances greatly, but it doesn't guarantee we qualify. We could in theory fail to qualify and simultaneously pass up the chance to give 3, 4, or 5 players the opportunity to experience U-20 qualifiers. 

That is probably the risk we'll end up taking - but just wanted to point out some of the cons to burning spots on our senior capable players. 

If we had already qualified, and we were debating calling our best to the U-20 world cup, that would be a different story, I think.

Same concept, of course, but it's the WC and even the biggest and brightest already in their senior team can enhance their reputations by performing on that stage.

Of course, we need to qualify though, hence the conundrum with Davies, Tabla, Millar, David and Busti. 

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No conundrum, send as many of the senior teams kids down to the U-20 as we can get.  If you want to be going to WC then we need to start going to U-20 WC.  If those guys take 4-5 spots from someone down the depth chart in qualifying so be it,  There is a chance that 20 kids can go to the U-20 world cup.  If the CMNT cant get through these first stages of nations play without David, Davies, Millar et al, then they should pack up shop.  MIllar and David only burst onto the scene in the last 6-8 months.  I think maybe a couple of vets that havnt gotten any time lately can fill in for them next camp.  Edwards, Petrasso, Wotherspoon, Rickets etc,  And MAKaye will be healthy by then too.  We are going to have proper call up discussions now that we actually have some depth.  

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50 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Of course, we need to qualify though, hence the conundrum with Davies, Tabla, Millar, David and Busti. 

If we can’t qualify with the depth that we have and against St.kitts and FG, then we are big trouble ! But we will be just fine without Davies, Ballou, Millar, David and Busti. 

With those players and others, we have a chance to qualify for the U20 World Cup and winning Concacaf U-20 tourney, if we do this, it’s going to make a huge statement and put Canada on the map. This is what the program needs. It would help bring in more duals, bigger and better sponsors, help the CPL and Canadian players everywhere. This is a exciting time! We as fans and the CSA can’t fuck it up.

just think if we make to the U20 World Cup, with the players we have we can really do some damage there. 

Edited by SpecialK

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1 hour ago, SpecialK said:

If we can’t qualify with the depth that we have and against St.kitts and FG, then we are big trouble ! But we will be just fine without Davies, Ballou, Millar, David and Busti. 

With those players and others, we have a chance to qualify for the U20 World Cup and winning Concacaf U-20 tourney, if we do this, it’s going to make a huge statement and put Canada on the map. This is what the program needs. It would help bring in more duals, bigger and better sponsors, help the CPL and Canadian players everywhere. This is a exciting time! We as fans and the CSA can’t fuck it up.

just think if we make to the U20 World Cup, with the players we have we can really do some damage there. 

 

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

No conundrum, send as many of the senior teams kids down to the U-20 as we can get.  If you want to be going to WC then we need to start going to U-20 WC.  If those guys take 4-5 spots from someone down the depth chart in qualifying so be it,  There is a chance that 20 kids can go to the U-20 world cup.  If the CMNT cant get through these first stages of nations play without David, Davies, Millar et al, then they should pack up shop.  MIllar and David only burst onto the scene in the last 6-8 months.  I think maybe a couple of vets that havnt gotten any time lately can fill in for them next camp.  Edwards, Petrasso, Wotherspoon, Rickets etc,  And MAKaye will be healthy by then too.  We are going to have proper call up discussions now that we actually have some depth.  

I get that as fans we want to call as strong a team as possible, but just don’t be surprised if it doesn’t go down like that. 

The USA team who qualified for the 2017 WC did so without Pulisic.

We didn’t have Davies for the same tournament, but he was healthy and eligible.

Both players were already capped with their senior teams.

These things happen! 

I guess the conundrum with Davies was CONCACAF Champions League, while Pulisic probably had the conundrum of whether he should be staying with Dortmund or helping his nation.

At any rate, there certainly is a conundrum, in the form of our nations league qualifier.

Edited by Obinna

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8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

 

I get that as fans we want to call as strong a team as possible, but just don’t be surprised if it doesn’t go down like that. 

The USA team who qualified for the 2017 WC did so without Pulisic.

We didn’t have Davies for the same tournament, but he was healthy and eligible.

Both players were already capped with their senior teams.

These things happen! 

I guess the conundrum with Davies was CONCACAF Champions League, while Pulisic probably had the conundrum of whether he should be staying with Dortmund or helping his nation.

At any rate, there certainly is a conundrum, in the form of our nations league qualifier.

Wasn’t Davies playing with Vancouver and they wouldn’t let him play. And same thing with pulisic ? He was playing with his club? 

See this where Concacaf needs to get their shit together and put the tourney during FIFA breaks. 

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2 hours ago, Obinna said:

 

At any rate, there certainly is a conundrum, in the form of our nations league qualifier.

i sure hope we can get by St Kitts without Davies, who is the only full time starter we are really talking about.  David is good but he has only been there for 2 games? How could we miss him so much already?  I know we are not used to it, but look at last game.  Arfield, Piette and Borjan didnt play, we cap tied 3 teenagers and still won.  We have to get used to thinking bigger.  Walk and chew gum, slam St kitts and qaulify for U-20WC.  

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2 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Wasn’t Davies playing with Vancouver and they wouldn’t let him play. And same thing with pulisic ? He was playing with his club? 

See this where Concacaf needs to get their shit together and put the tourney during FIFA breaks. 

The tournament is from Nov 1-21 and the international break is 12-21. 

I also noticed we play on the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th and 10th.

So it would seem to me that Gent may just decided not to release David.

Same for Tabla at Barcelona B.

Alphonso will likely be done with Vancouver, but does Bayern want him to come right away and get sharp, due to the crisis (some would call it) on the wings? Remember he is 18 on the 2nd, so technically can't he play for them as soon as Nov 3rd against Freiburg?

Busti and Millar I expect no issue with, but the other 3 I think could potentially miss out due to club commitments.

Side note on Davies: If he can in fact dress for Bayern right away on the 3rd, don't we want him in that first team, or do we want him to play against the U-20 sides of Dominica, Saint Kitts, Guadeloupe and the like? We talk about how the CanMNT should wipe the floor with Saint Kitts, but we need Davies to beat their big, bad U-20 side? That's a bit of a joke!

In my opinion the chance to play with Bayern Munich right away is much more important for his overall development than this qualification tournament for the U-20s. 

Edited by Obinna

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