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Vince193

Jonathan David

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I think it was Buffalo bills wild west show...not a circus like we imagine today.  Its funny how the "wild west" was very popular in europe at the time, remember the old Shatterhand books by german Karl May.   

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33 minutes ago, shorty said:

As a FN guy I disagree strongly. Regardless of how respectful the intent might be, you shouldn't use someone's else's culture as a "look" or a costume or a logo. Imagine if it were the picture of a stereotypical Nigerian or Dutch guy. It doesn't keep me up at night, but I wouldn't hope most people would have more imagination and understanding. I noticed all the headdresses at the World Cup this summer in various countries' colours as well and thought dear God, this had better not happen in 2026. It would be so embarrassing. 

Anyways, I couldn't say nothing in response, but really this topic is better left to Macksam's other thread than here. 

I see nothing wrong with using someone's culture as a look, or a costume, so long as it's not done with the intention of offending. Why not?

But a problem occurs when there's no intent to offend, but certain people are convinced otherwise. 

If anything, I am proud when I see Nigerian fans dress up in tribal dress during the world cup. It is a celebration, not an insult.

But I digress... Back to David...

Edit: couldn't help myself, I had to add that I would he ashamed if in 2026 we were so afraid of offending people that we prevented fans from having fun and expressing their pride by wearing head gear or costumes. The sad thing is that I can see that happening in Canada. 

Edited by Obinna

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5 hours ago, Keegan said:

How so? The Black Hawks were named after an American military battalion and the owners wife chose a Native American warrior to represent that fighting spirit. Much better than a circus character imo at least.

The story of the man known as "Blackhawk" is itself worth looking into. He was quite the leader.

 

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58 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I see nothing wrong with using someone's culture as a look, or a costume, so long as it's not done with the intention of offending. Why not?

So, it'd be cool to have a logo with a Newf making out with a fish?

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20 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

So, it'd be cool to have a logo with a Newf making out with a fish?

I thought about how i'd feel if there was a sterotypical newfie logo, about being a fisherman or something, and I came to the conclusion that the part of me that wouldnt like it would be the part that doesn't want that imagery associated with newfoundland. And then I realized that shame is the underlying emotion behind that.

So I think it comes down to shame, which is personal, not universal.

Same thing for this Gent logo. The logo itself is neutral, but people project their personal shame onto it and act as if it ought to be universally shameful.

Not to turn this into a psychology discussion, but perhaps there is a sense of shame (or guilt) in people who get offended by this logo of a particular soccer team in Europe.

Not that I am chastitizing anyone who feels that way. I get it. It's all good. Just sharing my own opinion. That's what we do around here.

 

Edited by Obinna

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16 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

So, it'd be cool to have a logo with a Newf making out with a fish?

I really want our graphically inclined members to mock this up.  And not shokushu goukan, lets just offend one culture group at a time.  

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In your example Obinna you describe Nigerian fans (whether or not they be Nigerian) supporting Nigeria wearing Nigerian tribal dress. 

Now imagine a Japanese or a Swedish team that adopts a black man's face as their logo (because black men represent power and strength) and then bastardizes a version of tribal costume to wear to games. It's different. Russian supporters wearing bastardized red, white and blue headdresses to support Russia is not the same as wearing Russian costumes to support Russia.

In every FN culture I know of (hundreds in Canada alone) permission is VERY important. You need permission to sing a particular song, to tell a particular story, to visit someone else's land and so on. 

I'm a proud Mohawk (also British and Black incidentally) and a proud Canadian, but damn it's confusing and conflicted at times. I'm very jealous of New Zealand where (generally) the European and Maori really seem to get each other. Took hard work to get there though from what I understand. Hope we get there eventually. 

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36 minutes ago, shorty said:

In your example Obinna you describe Nigerian fans (whether or not they be Nigerian) supporting Nigeria wearing Nigerian tribal dress. 

Now imagine a Japanese or a Swedish team that adopts a black man's face as their logo (because black men represent power and strength) and then bastardizes a version of tribal costume to wear to games. It's different. Russian supporters wearing bastardized red, white and blue headdresses to support Russia is not the same as wearing Russian costumes to support Russia.

In every FN culture I know of (hundreds in Canada alone) permission is VERY important. You need permission to sing a particular song, to tell a particular story, to visit someone else's land and so on. 

I'm a proud Mohawk (also British and Black incidentally) and a proud Canadian, but damn it's confusing and conflicted at times. I'm very jealous of New Zealand where (generally) the European and Maori really seem to get each other. Took hard work to get there though from what I understand. Hope we get there eventually. 

I get what you are saying, but that is pretty far removed from Gent's logo, isn't it? Their fans aren't exactly dressing in blue and white headgear. 

As for Russian or any other fans doing that, which is a separate issue not related to Gent (let alone David) I get why you'd be bothered.

I would be more sympathetic to banning such headdresses (now that you've given an example of what you meant in your last post), but ultimately I don't think any form of dress should be banned, unless it is inciting violence or whatnot. Pragmatically speaking though, I would understand such a ban for our World Cup.

 

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1 minute ago, Obinna said:

I get what you are saying, but that is pretty far removed from Gent's logo, isn't it? Their fans aren't exactly dressing in blue and white headgear. 

I don't think you are getting what shorty is saying. Moreover, it isn't whether or not you personally think the appropriation of indigenous imagery or symbols is done "respectfully", it is the taking without asking in general which is and has historically been harmful. That is why permission (as shorty mentioned) is so important.

Personally, I think all sports teams that use indigenous logos or names should change them, unless they have permission or the logo/symbol was 'given' to them. 

Of course, the absolute worse is the Washington NFL team name/logo. That is simply abhorrent. 

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36 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

I don't think you are getting what shorty is saying. Moreover, it isn't whether or not you personally think the appropriation of indigenous imagery or symbols is done "respectfully", it is the taking without asking in general which is and has historically been harmful. That is why permission (as shorty mentioned) is so important.

Personally, I think all sports teams that use indigenous logos or names should change them, unless they have permission or the logo/symbol was 'given' to them. 

Of course, the absolute worse is the Washington NFL team name/logo. That is simply abhorrent. 

We are talking about a specific logo, not the generalities about the historical harm caused by not asking permission. 

This is a thread about David, not about cultural appropriation. Such generalities fall well outside the scope of football and Gent, not to mention David.

Great conversation though, anyone is more than welcome to PM me about it.

 

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1 hour ago, shorty said:

Looks like a happy couple out enjoying the game and supporting their team!

 

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54 minutes ago, Obinna said:

We are talking about a specific logo, not the generalities about the historical harm caused by not asking permission. 

What? Yet another point went over your head? The issue is that this "specific logo" propagates the historical harm of not asking permission! That's the point!!

But like you said, let's get back on track and talk about David. Clearly we need more games to talk about. I blame this thread derailment on Herdman and the CSA! :lol:

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Just now, Bertuzzi44 said:

What? Yet another point went over your head? The issue is that this "specific logo" propagates the historical harm of not asking permission! That's the point!!

Does it though?

39 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

But like you said, let's get back on track and talk about David. Clearly we need more games to talk about. I blame this thread derailment on Herdman and the CSA! :lol:

Too much talk and not enough games make Voyageurs sumthing sumthing....

:)

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Just now, Obinna said:

Does it though?

Yup. Missed the point again. The logo existing is emblematic of the continuation of a structure that disempowers indigenous people. 

Don't be so anecdotal; "I think this logo looks fine" is such a cursory analysis of the situation and pretty much ignores the historical context.

(Sorry guys... I work closely with indigenous communities and it is hard for me not to address this kind of ignorance)

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3 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Yup. Missed the point again. The logo existing is emblematic of the continuation of a structure that disempowers indigenous people. 

Don't be so anecdotal; "I think this logo looks fine" is such a cursory analysis of the situation and pretty much ignores the historical context.

(Sorry guys... I work closely with indigenous communities and it is hard for me not to address this kind of ignorance)

Precisely. I am purposely ignoring it, because to go beyond a cursory analysis is unnecessary in this case. That's my whole point. 

The historical context and disempowering structure you refer to only apply to Gent's logo because you insist it does.

In otherwords, it only becomes a problem when you make it a problem. 

I think context and a little common sense should apply here. 

We are talking about the logo of a football club, in Belgium. We are not talking about a logo for a Canadian school, or an omnipresent Canadian governmental institution of some kind, or the flag of a municipality in Canada, etc.

Let's face it, Gent aren't the Chicago Blackhawks. People arent walking around Canada in Gent jerseys, subjecting the indigenous of this country to that logo.

When soccer becomes mainstream in this country and David becomes a national star and Gent jerseys flood the shelves of every Sport chek, then your problem will no longer be theoretical, how about that? ;)

 

 

Edited by Obinna

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started watching just after his goal. He's really making a nuisance of himself, making good runs.

As someone who has never seen him play, great to see. I can see him being a really important piece going forward! I think he's going to score a lot of goals this year.

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