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Herdman new head coach

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39 minutes ago, Kent said:

Only if you don’t put any stock in Herdman’s accomplishments in women’s soccer. Are two over achieving bronze medals in a best on best women’s world tournament less impressive than 1 to 2 year stints coaching men’s club teams?

 A few years ago, Victor M. was interviewed on radio and asked why they don't  appoint JH as coach of the CMNT.  His reply was that the women's game is totally different from the men's game and that JH would not be qualified  to  coach the CMNT.

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2 minutes ago, johnyb said:

Blows me away! I have to admit when I saw "Herdman replaces OZ" I thought it was Robert pulling our leg

This would have been a great April Fools joke, for sure.  Welcome to the Trump Age!

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3 minutes ago, johnyb said:

Blows me away! I have to admit when I saw "Herdman replaces OZ" I thought it was Robert pulling our leg

I wish it was April 1st

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Read the comments on the CSA instagram post LOL I bet you this is why they did it too.  Every bandwagon fan who knows nothing about football thinks this is a step back for Herdman and is in shock.  Like is this real life?  Only in Canada.  We have people who honestly believe that the Women's team is close to the Men's team and that this wasn't a no brainer for Herdman. 

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1 hour ago, Keegan said:

Yes, let's think for a moment shall we?

Would you hire Serbia's boys u15 national team coach to take over the men's program?  Because that's essentially the level we're talking about moving up from.   

I was trying to equate the level of play of the WNT to the Men's level, and i thought about some of the exhibition games the Canadian Women's Hockey team have played against Boy's Midget AAA teams in the past. If you were to translate that to Soccer here in Canada it would be like the Women's team playing U16 OPDL teams in friendlies. I think that's probably a pretty reasonable parallel in terms of physicality, athleticism and technique. So Herdman is basically a really good OPDL U16 coach with a strong technical program background and better certifications than 95% of the coaches at that level. He'd probably get a shot at a coaching job at TFCA.

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[ 1 ]  I hope the players can respect John Herdman. He does have  two Olympic  bronze medals ( in four years )to his name. Perhaps one  can dismiss one of the  bronze medals as a fluke, but two bronze medals? Maybe his methods can produce  results -- within reason. He is  a bright guy, maybe he has something to offer.

[ 2 ]  Because of gender differences, I think men can often defeat  women in sports  and that's not a sexist thing to say. To me it becomes sexist when people use this point of fact to invalidate women sports: to say it's not worth watching or to say it's inferior. And that's morally wrong. I think fans of the CMNT should be concerned about John  Herdman's lack of experience  and familiarity with the terrain of men's soccer ,  but  attempts to reduce or diminish or dismiss his experiences because he was coaching women --  is the textbook definition of sexism.  

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, tc-in-bc said:

[ 1 ]  I hope the players can respect John Herdman. He does have  two Olympic  bronze medals ( in four years )to his name. Perhaps one  can dismiss one of the  bronze medals as a fluke, but two bronze medals? Maybe his methods can produce  results -- within reason. He is  a bright guy, maybe he has something to offer.

[ 2 ]  Because of gender differences, I think men can often defeat  women in sports  and that's not a sexist thing to say. To me it becomes sexist when people use this point of fact to invalidate women sports: to say it's not worth watching or to say it's inferior. And that's morally wrong. I think fans of the CMNT should be concerned about John  Herdman's lack of experience  and familiarity with the terrain of men's soccer ,  but  attempts to reduce or diminish or dismiss his experiences because he was coaching women --  is the textbook definition of sexism.  

Wrong. It is not sexism to say my girlfriend does not want to go to my great barber to get her hair done before our wedding. She want's to go to a women's hair stylist. Get it?

Regardless of whether the hair cutter is a man or a woman.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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What a strange, strange move.  Risking our golden program to save another, with what can't be seen as a proven success in men's soccer.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

 

Confirmed by Rollins this is exactly what happened

How does this save the women's team?  By keeping his assistant in the mix?  There is more to this, because that line of thinking doesn't make sense.  There is no leverage for Herdman in that play.  If he goes to the men or goes England, he's lost to the women's program.  If this was the case, why wouldn't they have just given him the job from the start?  Someone wanted Zambrano out for some reason.

If the players don't respect Herdman compared to Floro, fair enough - that's a big gap in experience.  I thought we should have kept Floro on (compared to what we had available - Zambrano is a downgrade.)  But if they don't respect Herdman compared to Zambrano, well, yeah that's sexism 101 given that Zambrano's resumé was weak and was a shot-in-the-dark hire to begin with.  It's not sexism for your girlfriend to not want to go to your barber again after a bad haircut.  It's deffo sexism if she judges him off-the-bat simply because of the gender of the clients he usually works with, without having given him a chance to prove that he can give a woman a good style.

Herdman may be a failure.  He may not be an upgrade.  But we aren't losing much with Zambrano gone, other than a piddly year's continuity.

Edited by Marc

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 It would be truthful for everyone ( men and women )  to acknowledge gender differences And. many women national team programs know this as well  and they train against U15  to U17  boys. This in itself is not sexist. It becomes sexist when people take this point of fact to suggest superiority/inferiority:  that women soccer is inferior OR  that people in women soccer are doing something inferior.  If you were to meet a Canadian women national team player ( like Christine Sinclair ) and state that  women  soccer is equivalent to U16 OPDL  or equivalent to Division 11 England  then you just insulted a  Canadian women  national team player, whether you intended to or not. So it is better for everyone to acknowledge gender differences  ( like barber vs hairstylist ) but to refrain from saying  things that  imply  the  superiority/inferiority of the genders;   which would be sexist and insulting.

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12 hours ago, tc-in-bc said:

I think fans of the CMNT should be concerned about John  Herdman's lack of experience  and familiarity with the terrain of men's soccer ,  but  attempts to reduce or diminish or dismiss his experiences because he was coaching women --  is the textbook definition of sexism.  

Amen

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I know this board does not like the CSA. Their record is absolutely terrible. So far this move looks like a strange one. But honestly people, we have no idea what was going on behind the scenes... I am just going to stay away from all the arguing and accept the fact that we have a new coach. 

I have always seen Herdman as a great coach, and a complete class act. He let the CSA know he was leaving a while back. That was no big surprise. I still have confidence in his character and his abilities. I know he is not fully proven, but I will support him. I still want Canadian soccer to thrive. He did it with the women, maybe he can do it with the men. 

I have no interest in arguing about what happened for him to get the job, because it is all speculation. I just want to voice my support for him personally as the new coach of the team.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

I know this board does not like the CSA. Their record is absolutely terrible. So far this move looks like a strange one. But honestly people, we have no idea what was going on behind the scenes... I am just going to stay away from all the arguing and accept the fact that we have a new coach. 

I have always seen Herdman as a great coach, and a complete class act. He let the CSA know he was leaving a while back. That was no big surprise. I still have confidence in his character and his abilities. I know he is not fully proven, but I will support him. I still want Canadian soccer to thrive. He did it with the women, maybe he can do it with the men. 

I have no interest in arguing about what happened for him to get the job, because it is all speculation. I just want to voice my support for him personally as the new coach of the team.

Hey now, no using common sense on here.  But we all know this is the end of days for Canadian soccer and sugar coating it and semblance of positivity will not be tolerated by any of the naive fools who don't see it and acknowledge it :)

Seriously though I don't think I've ever seen the fanbase as crazy and irrational as it's been online the day.  Just my opinion though.  And now I'm going back to work and getting away for a bit.  Have fun lol

Edited by Rheo

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1 minute ago, MtlMario said:

Can't wait to see his call-ups on his first camp.

I haven't followed the women's team closely enough to know, has JH been the kind of coach to make drastic changes when things aren't going well? Has he made questionable call ups that have worked out? Have his lineups been static and without change when necessary? Has he given younger players a chance? I'm curious to know what people think.

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The beauty of sport is that it's a meritocracy, you can determine the relative quality of two teams when they play each other or more specifically how good a player is when they try playing at a certain level. We find over and over that CDN women's NT's in both Hockey and Soccer both seem to be equal to 2nd tier elite boys teams in their mid-teens. We can also look at certain women's hockey players who have played against men. Manon Rheaume and Shannon Szabados both played Tier II Jr. against boys. Rheaume was called up to the Q and Minor pros as a publicity stunt and was terrible. Hailey Wickenheiser played in the 2nd Div. in Finland as a bottom 6 forward with limited effectiveness. So, is it insulting to say that some of the best women's hockey players are Tier II Jr. or fringe pros when evidence points to that being their level? Is it insulting to say that a coach whose top level reached is Tier II Jr. or Finnish D2 coach is too untested to be considered a good candidate for say an AHL or KHL coaching post? (a leap up a few levels) They might turn out to be good enough for the job, but you're taking a big risk on an unknown quantity.

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32 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

I haven't followed the women's team closely enough to know, has JH been the kind of coach to make drastic changes when things aren't going well? Has he made questionable call ups that have worked out? Have his lineups been static and without change when necessary? Has he given younger players a chance? I'm curious to know what people think.

Yes and no? His 2015 WWC roster was basically picked by 2013, and the team was playing well enough going into it but wound up underperforming and it really looked like some of the younger players who were cut would have been better choices for the roster (hindsight being 20/20 and all). 
But after that he pretty immediately overhauled the roster, went with the youth got another bronze medal out of it, and not one that seemed fluke or lucky. 

Definitely not afraid to give young players a chance, one of his strengths really. Played Germany (#2 ranked) in the spring and gave the 3rd-string keeper the start to get her more experience. A few years back when Canada played the US he started a centreback duo of two at-the-time mostly unproven teenagers. 

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Like most (if not quite all) of you, I was shocked and disappointed when I learned of Herdman in, Zambrano out. For me, it's mostly because I generally liked how CMNT was playing and gave OZ a great deal of credit for this. But, I had (still have) no idea of all of OZ's work/effects behind the scene. Kind of like the duck on a pond analogy. Everything seems calm but under the water the ducks paddling furiously. Or, according to some whispers, not actually doing much at all (so much for the analogy).

Herdman is a supreme motivator. He is experienced working with national teams. He's generally done very well with the CWNT. I expect he has his eyes fully open going into this. Yes, he definitely has his work cut out for him as he transitions into the men's game. But, good national team coaches aren't necessarily good club coaches, and vice versa. There's a huge transition from club to country, so maybe there's not quite as much moving from women's to men's soccer as some are commenting. He's also relatively well known to the Canadian media, at least for someone not wearing skates.

In the coming weeks we'll likely hear a lot more of the behind the scenes events that will shed light on these moves. Possibly, we'll even applaud the CSA for being decisive, unlike sitting around, falling asleep with Floro-ball. It may be that the CSA had been almost at the point of pulling the trigger on OZ when Herdman received an English offer. We could then have been out of both CMNT and CWNT coaches. Instead, maybe the CSA took the best action they could in a difficult situation.

Or, maybe this situation is just all f*cked up and it's more of the old CSA. It's too soon for me to place my bet.

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The most exciting thing about Herdman is that he is a strategic builder, in every way.  We need that BIG TIME.  This will be 90% of his job. 

The biggest question: Does he have the tactical chops to coach the team to success on the field? And if he is slightly on tactical experience, can he learn quickly enough so that the on-field performance matches the off-field performance.  

 

 

 

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I have never been a fan of the player suddenly turned coach and the federation hands them an A lisc.   I am always afraid this is going to happen.

I think for this to go terribly wrong Herdman would have to be abysmal, or he completely loses the locker room.    I think it is fair to say we know he is not abysmal.  You can't be abysmal and succeed at anything, anywhere.  He has dedicated his life to coaching and we know he is not stupid.  Those are two good qualities I'll take over the player suddenly turned coach scenario. 

He has 25+ years of coaching experience.  I get that on paper this is still a ludicrous appointment.  It's risky but I don't think we just boarded the Titanic. 

 

 

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I need to see if I still have any games PVR'd where Herdman was brought in by TSN as an analyst - can't remember if this was for national team games or TFC games. Would be more interesting now to listen to his analysis.

The Neil Davidson article I linked to above really emphasizes the "motivator" part of his coaching style & effectiveness.

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