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9 hours ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

Reposting from the Okello thread:

Here is my view on MLS academies. The MLS has improved greatly over the past 5-10 years. Guys like Osorio, Edwards, Kaye, and Tiebert are starters now, and would have been starters back then as well. But the league gets better each year, there is no doubt in that. That makes it difficult to graduate players from the academy, because even if the player improves, the league does too.

“Prospects” like Chapman, Hamilton, Shome, Fraiser, Bustos, and Adekugebe are improving. But i think they are improving at a pace that is similar to how the MLS is improving. As a result, even though they are much better than 5 years ago, they still don’t have starting jobs. The same can be said about our guys in the USL, they are improving with the league. 

I agree with this. A lot has to do with increasing Caps, and all the other bull like TAM, GAM and I can't even keep up with what they come up with (I'd say, just let the Cap go already!). You can see this in the rosters, nowadays you get players that have had their shot in the EPL, or La Liga. Players that just come short of that kind of level. Where it used to be guys like Soolsma, who wasn't even a pro in the Netherlands. MLS has improved greatly in the last 5 years. 

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10 hours ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

Reposting from the Okello thread:

Here is my view on MLS academies. The MLS has improved greatly over the past 5-10 years. Guys like Osorio, Edwards, Kaye, and Tiebert are starters now, and would have been starters back then as well. But the league gets better each year, there is no doubt in that. That makes it difficult to graduate players from the academy, because even if the player improves, the league does too.

“Prospects” like Chapman, Hamilton, Shome, Fraiser, Bustos, and Adekugebe are improving. But i think they are improving at a pace that is similar to how the MLS is improving. As a result, even though they are much better than 5 years ago, they still don’t have starting jobs. The same can be said about our guys in the USL, they are improving with the league. 

Leagues in Europe are not improving at the pace that the MLS or USL are. That makes it difficult to compare the academies here to traditional academies. I think the best way we can test the academies, is by the improvement of our national teams. 

As well, I hope that the CPL can offer more playing time for players like Chapman, Hamilton, and such. Hopefully they can improve with the CPL, but by being starters rather than subs. I hope it can fall right in between the MLS and USL levels, because there is too much of a gap there.

The bolded is my outlook on this topic. That's why I think MLS academies still have a lot to prove.

FIFA U-17 World Cup record
Year Result Position Pld W D L GF GA
China 1985 Did not qualify
Canada1987 Group stage 16th of 16 3 0 0 3 1 8
Scotland 1989 Group stage 16th of 16 3 0 0 3 1 9
Italy 1991 Did not qualify
Japan 1993 Group stage 16th of 16 3 0 0 3 0 18
Ecuador 1995 Group stage 16th of 16 3 0 0 3 1 7
Egypt 1997 Did not qualify
New Zealand 1999
Trinidad and Tobago 2001
Finland 2003
Peru 2005
South Korea 2007
Nigeria 2009
Mexico 2011 Group stage 19th of 24 3 0 2 1 2 5
United Arab Emirates 2013 Group stage 18th of 24 3 0 2 1 3 6
Chile 2015 Did not qualify
India 2017
Peru 2019 To be determined

 

U-20 World Cup record
Year Result Position Pld W D L GF GA
Tunisia 1977 Did not qualify
Japan 1979 Group stage 13th of 16 3 1 0 2 3 5
Australia 1981 Did not qualify
Mexico 1983
Soviet Union 1985 Group stage 14th of 16 3 0 1 2 0 7
Chile 1987 Group stage 12th of 16 3 0 2 1 4 5
Saudi Arabia 1989 Did not qualify
Portugal 1991
Australia 1993
Qatar 1995
Malaysia 1997 Round of 16 13th of 24 4 1 1 2 3 5
Nigeria 1999 Did not qualify
Argentina 2001 Group stage 24th of 24 3 0 0 3 0 9
United Arab Emirates 2003 Quarter-finals 8th of 24 5 2 0 3 4 6
Netherlands 2005 Group stage 21st of 24 3 0 1 2 2 7
Canada2007 Group Stage 24th of 24 3 0 0 3 0 6
Egypt 2009 Did not qualify
Colombia 2011
Turkey 2013
New Zealand 2015
South Korea 2017
Poland 2019 To be determined

 

We had a blip at the U17 level shortly after the academies started up and it looked promising, but it didn't translate to the U20 or men's levels, and then the U17 level went back to not qualifying for World Cups again. Needless to say it's quite disappointing that the academies correlate perfectly with when we stopped qualifying for World Cups at the U20 level.

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On 4/13/2018 at 10:01 PM, Kent said:

We had a blip at the U17 level shortly after the academies started up and it looked promising, but it didn't translate to the U20 or men's levels, and then the U17 level went back to not qualifying for World Cups again. Needless to say it's quite disappointing that the academies correlate perfectly with when we stopped qualifying for World Cups at the U20 level.

@Kent, I put this more (a lot more) on the CSA than the academies. The academies are there to train pros to ascend up their respective systems. They are designed to produce pro players. The techniques, style of play and demands will differ between the clubs - it is the responsibility of the Federation to produce a competitive team among the player pool, and to get them to buy into their style of play.

The players coming up have definitely improved, and have a more professional attitude (but maybe too cocky, to be frank), but the international results haven't changed - that's on the CSA. They rarely organise long training get togethers and I don't see how a team can even begin to gel - and become a "team" - with no coherence and a only few sessions before the meaningful matches.

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Why would the CSA organize friendlies for the CMNT or extended camps for our youth teams? The cost would no doubt far outweigh the benefits of being competitive in the region and actually achieving something in football.  Better to maintain the status quo and wait for a miracle or two to occur and get us to the hex!

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, BCM said:

The players coming up have definitely improved

I didn't follow the youth levels nearly as closely then as I do now (and even now I don't follow nearly as closely as others on this board) but is that a given? Notable players from the successful, pre-MLS academy teams.

2001 U-20 team - Terry Dunfield, Mike Klukowski, Julian De Guzman, Atiba Hutchinson, Rob Friend, Iain Hume

2003 U-20 team - Nik Ledgerwood, Iain Hume, Atiba Hutchinson, David Edgar, Josh Simpson

2005 U-20 team - Nik Ledgerwood, Andre Hainault, Will Johnson, Marcel de Jong, David Edgar, a Bosnian goalkeeper

Notable players from unsuccessful post-MLS academy teams.

2009 U-20 team (didn't qualify) - Nana Attakora, Adam Straith, Marcus Haber, a colour whose father is a legend

2011 U-20 team (didn't qualify) - Doneil Henry, Russell Teibert, Jonathan Osorio, Lucas Cavallini

2013 U-20 team (didn't qualify) - Doneil Henry, Samuel Piette, Michael Petrasso, Keven Aleman, Manjrekar James, Anthony Jackson-Hamel, Maxime Crepeau

 

To me it doesn't look like an obvious increase in quality between pre and post. And I want to make it clear, I'm not blaming MLS teams for our lack of results. It's my opinion that they aren't nearly sufficient to get us over the hump.

Edited by Kent

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19 hours ago, Kent said:

I didn't follow the youth levels nearly as closely then as I do now (and even now I don't follow nearly as closely as others on this board) but is that a given? Notable players from the successful, pre-MLS academy teams.

2001 U-20 team - Terry Dunfield, Mike Klukowski, Julian De Guzman, Atiba Hutchinson, Rob Friend, Iain Hume

2003 U-20 team - Nik Ledgerwood, Iain Hume, Atiba Hutchinson, David Edgar, Josh Simpson

2005 U-20 team - Nik Ledgerwood, Andre Hainault, Will Johnson, Marcel de Jong, David Edgar, a Bosnian goalkeeper

Notable players from unsuccessful post-MLS academy teams.

2009 U-20 team (didn't qualify) - Nana Attakora, Adam Straith, Marcus Haber, a colour whose father is a legend

2011 U-20 team (didn't qualify) - Doneil Henry, Russell Teibert, Jonathan Osorio, Lucas Cavallini

2013 U-20 team (didn't qualify) - Doneil Henry, Samuel Piette, Michael Petrasso, Keven Aleman, Manjrekar James, Anthony Jackson-Hamel, Maxime Crepeau

 

To me it doesn't look like an obvious increase in quality between pre and post. And I want to make it clear, I'm not blaming MLS teams for our lack of results. It's my opinion that they aren't nearly sufficient to get us over the hump.

It's a fair point - but it goes back to my other point, I'd take depth over a shallow pool with a couple of stars every day of the week. You named the "made its" from the earlier 5 year period - and it's a nice collection of players. But where is the supporting cast? How many pro matches did they play? The more recent five years (and you actually named more players in the recent batch, btw) will have far more pros.

I took a quick look, and it seems that from 2013 every single player has gone on to make pro appearances. This simply did not occur in the earlier cycles - there were a lot of college burnouts and even more "would be" guys with a few pro matches. The tide turned, I would argue in a big way, in 2013. 

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Posted (edited)

The most recent groups are bigger because those players are younger and still pursuing professional opportunities. The older cohorts have had more time to fail and be excluded. 

Kent, good job on the list but i like to only include players that "graduate" from a youth cycle for the corresponding year. Eg. Hume and Hutch are 83's so they fall under the 2003 group only.

For 2001, see above and Nsaliwa and Gerba need to be added. Hargreaves developed in Canada.

2003 remove Ledgerwood and Edgar. Unfortunately di Tulio and the goalie both suffered career ending leg injuries so we'll never know. Dani Fernandes bailed for Portugal.

2005 remove Johnson, Edgar and Begovic.

2007 Edgar, Johnson, Peters, Ricketts and Jackson. Vitoria bailed for Portugal and came back. Begovic bailed. Jono de Guzman bailed. Lensky bailed. 

2009 I would consider removing Nana, too low a threshold. Bekker and Thomas likely don't meet the quality requirements either. So just Haber and Straith (?). Bunbury bailed. Hoilett held out.

2011 Cavallini, Teibert and Osorio.

2013 Remove Petrasso. Aleman and Crepeau are in danger of being omitted eventually. Add Chapman.

2015 Larin, Petrasso, Adekugbe...TBC.

Edited by jpg75

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