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CPL General

CanPL General  

290 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the CanPL have Pro/Rel?

    • Yes
      160
    • No
      130
  2. 2. Should the CanPL have playoffs?

    • Yes
      186
    • No
      104


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1 minute ago, Diamondium said:

I interpreted it as him avoiding swearing, but your way makes more sense. :lol:

 

I really like this plan. Pro/rel at 16 sounds like a perfect long-term goal.

I'm gonna go ahead and say I think this is a terrible idea.

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At 16 teams, yeah I think it's too soon.

At 20+ teams, I think it's a fantastic idea.

It's obviously a massive if statement, ever reaching 20+ teams. Who knows what 2050 in Canada soccer looks like.

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I was never against pro/rel, just didn't think it feasible in North America.  They've got a huge set of balls though planning to get to that level.  Good on them, although I'm sure there's nothing to expect for quite a long time :)

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1 minute ago, Rheo said:

I was never against pro/rel, just didn't think it feasible in North America.  They've got a huge set of balls though planning to get to that level.  Good on them, although I'm sure there's nothing to expect for quite a long time :)

That's true. Get up to 20 teams first and then we'll see.

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Well... If true that will be an interesting look. I'll reserve judgement before proclaiming it the death of CPL/literally the best thing to ever happen in Canadian soccer

Good angle for attracting purists though, and presumably gives a place within CPL for teams looking at a lower wage budget while still giving smaller markets the allure of (a chance at) the top flight

I'm split between skepticism and intrigue

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I was actually feeling that my only reservation is that 16 teams feels like a bit much. Surprised to see others saying the opposite that 20 would be when you put in tier 2.

I think with the markets available to Canada, 10-14 would feel like an optimal long-term size for a top flight league where I would start doing tier 2. After that, the cities available become a bit of a stretch. 

Edited by Diamondium

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51 minutes ago, Rheo said:

I was never against pro/rel, just didn't think it feasible in North America.  They've got a huge set of balls though planning to get to that level.  Good on them, although I'm sure there's nothing to expect for quite a long time :)

I wonder if it's part of the feasibility though. 

Say you want to get a 16-20 team league in Canada with high/complete revenue sharing. We've all beat into the ground that half of those markets have little chance of drawing the crowds/tv audience to justify spending 1.5M on wages. 

So instead of splitting salary equally and ensuring only big markets can get into CPL (a criticism of MLS we have seen), what if you had the large majority (say 75%) of revenue funnelled towards the top tier and the minority to the second tier. 

The second tier could have a proportionally lower cap/budget and remain financially viable, but actually attract a fanbase by not getting ghettoized as a permanent minor league team. 

Maybe a tiered system with pyramid-wide revenue sharing is the only way we get to the 20+ team system we scoffed at, truly a "hybrid" system that takes the best from MLS and traditional leagues. 

Edited by Complete Homer

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Ideally:

CPL

  • Combo of Top 16 markets with a minimum 1 team per provinces except NFLD, NB and PEI (to help Halifax solidify and create a demand in the Maritimes)
  • Last 2 teams face of in Relegation playoffs, loser goes to CPL 2

CPL 2 or Canadian Championship

  • Mid size markets
  • 3 sub-regional leagues like the CHL (Maritimes-Quebec) (Ontario) (West)
  • Memorial Cup Tournament with the winner promoted to Premier League

 

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4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Ideally:

CPL

  • Combo of Top 16 markets with a minimum 1 team per provinces except NFLD, NB and PEI (to help Halifax solidify and create a demand in the Maritimes)
  • Last 2 teams face of in Relegation playoffs, loser goes to CPL 2

CPL 2 or Canadian Championship

  • Mid size markets
  • 3 sub-regional leagues like the CHL (Maritimes-Quebec) (Ontario) (West)
  • Memorial Cup Tournament with the winner promoted to Premier League

 

That would require an insane number of teams to sprout out of the ground.

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11 minutes ago, Diamondium said:

I was actually feeling that my only reservation is that 16 teams feels like a bit much. Surprised to see others saying the opposite that 20 would be when you put in tier 2.

I think with the markets available to Canada, 10-14 would feel like an optimal long-term size for a top flight league where I would start doing tier 2. After that, the cities available become a bit of a stretch. 

I went into more detail in the CPL2 thread as to why I would talk about a CPL2 at 20 teams, rather than at 16 or a lower number. The reason being that, to create a CPL2, you need enough teams in both CPL1 and in CPL2.

If CPL hits 16 teams, and then decrees it will implement pro/rel within 1-3 years, the best scenario you could hope for would be where maybe there's 4 new teams in the pyramid for something like a 10-team CPL1 and a 10-team CPL2, correct?

To me, the benefits of pro/rel would be outweighed by the disadvantages of having two small 10-team divisions, where we're once again talking about travel costs and etc. I would wait until we have about 20 teams in CPL, where we could seriously discuss having at least two 12-team divisions.

But yeah, there really aren't very many markets for something like this to happen. Everything I said above, I honestly can't see it happening until like 2050 or something, and CPL became a bigger smashing hit than we could all imagine.

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Just now, ironcub14 said:

I went into more detail in the CPL2 thread as to why I would talk about a CPL2 at 20 teams, rather than at 16 or a lower number. The reason being that, to create a CPL2, you need enough teams in both CPL1 and in CPL2.

If CPL hits 16 teams, and then decrees it will implement pro/rel within 1-3 years, the best scenario you could hope for would be where maybe there's 4 new teams in the pyramid for something like a 10-team CPL1 and a 10-team CPL2, correct?

To me, the benefits of pro/rel would be outweighed by the disadvantages of having two small 10-team divisions, where we're once again talking about travel costs and etc. I would wait until we have about 20 teams in CPL, where we could seriously discuss having at least two 12-team divisions.

But yeah, there really aren't very many markets for something like this to happen. Everything I said above, I honestly can't see it happening until like 2050 or something, and CPL became a bigger smashing hit than we could all imagine.

That's a fair assessment. I just had a bit of a misunderstanding of your position. I was thinking you were implying keeping tier 1 at 20 teams then up and splitting and adding another 20 teams.

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1 minute ago, Diamondium said:

That's a fair assessment. I just had a bit of a misunderstanding of your position. I was thinking you were implying keeping tier 1 at 20 teams then up and splitting and adding another 20 teams.

Cheers man. Yep, we probably couldn't keep Tier 1 at 16 teams under what Duane tweeted, unless there really was demand later on for 8-12 CPL2 teams to all at once spring out of expansion or L1O/PLSQ and are not already a part of CPL.

I would guess that at least 2-4 teams would be relegated to tier 2 to help create and populate a CPL2. But the big thing that I think we all already can conjecture is that this pro/rel system, if ever implemented, would likely be capped at tier 1 and 2 for a long time. And that would definitely soften the blow of relegation.

I totally know how this feels because my hometown club is at the bottom of the 2nd division in Korea at the moment. But we can't get relegated any further, as of yet anyways :)

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Well I posted my issue in the other thread but I'll repost here...

I think a big issue with pro/rel in Canada would be the inevitability of it leading to imbalanced east/west ratios at times.  Because pro/rel would not take that into account. 

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5 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

I don't agree there. I remember watching the Mexico v Netherlands game at the last World Cup at a bar outside Vancouver. The Robben dive really turned a lot of people off who were interested in the game up until that point. Diving and time-wasting are just not acceptable to the average Canadian sports.

Up until that point? The game ended right after so even if people lost interest, it doesn't mean anything as any hardcore soccer fan cheering for Mexico would have reacted the same way. Dives that result in penalties and fouls disgust us just as much as they do the casuals, but again, they don't happen enough for them to completely put us off the sport. If you witnessed people watching a great game and then leave in disgust after witnessing a clear dive that resulted in a foul after the 60'th minute, that would be an argument to make, but you'll never witness anything like that. However, becoming "disinterested" after a dive that resulted in a penalty in the 93'rd minute? I don't take anything away from that. Yes, they lost interest in the game because it ended right after, lol. Sure, it left a bad taste in their mouths as it did the hardcore fans, but you'll see those people again for Russia 2018. I stick by what I said, diving is a convenient excuse people use to bash the sport, nothing more. As long as it doesn't become to frequent, it won't have any bearings what so ever.

Edited by Macksam

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57 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Ideally:

CPL

  • Combo of Top 16 markets with a minimum 1 team per provinces except NFLD, NB and PEI (to help Halifax solidify and create a demand in the Maritimes)
  • Last 2 teams face of in Relegation playoffs, loser goes to CPL 2

CPL 2 or Canadian Championship

  • Mid size markets
  • 3 sub-regional leagues like the CHL (Maritimes-Quebec) (Ontario) (West)
  • Memorial Cup Tournament with the winner promoted to Premier League

 

I could see an 8 team East and West division, with 8th place in each division having a play in series with the 1st place teams in a similarly aligned CPL2. This will ensure you don't have newly promoted Victoria joining the Eastern division and jacking up travel costs for the entire league

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8 hours ago, Kent said:

You are right, playoffs are awful and don't belong in soccer. That's why everyone loves the World Cup, Champions League, Euro Cup, Domestic Cups, Promotion/relegation playoffs, regular season.

I know my TFC fandom would be much better off if we never played those playoff games last year, in particular against Montreal. It does absolutely nothing for fans and doesn't bring any exposure to the league. http://www.wakingthered.com/2016/12/1/13813052/toronto-fc-break-tv-ratings-records-again-mls-eastern-conference-final-montreal-impact

None of the competitions you mention regarding a knockout stage are preceded by a fully interlocking schedule that has already determined the winner.

The one exception being promotion playoffs, although these do not determine the champions of anything.

Knockout football is what CUP competitions are for.

LEAGUE competitions determine the winner on points. Everywhere in the World. You know, that big place where football is much more successful than in North America!

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Just now, Oranje said:

I could see an 8 team East and West division, with 8th place in each division having a play in series with the 1st place teams in a similarly aligned CPL2. This will ensure you don't have newly promoted Victoria joining the Eastern division and jacking up travel costs for the entire league

That would require at least 32 professional teams. That's decades away. The whole of the US only has 46. 

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41 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

Great point from Homer about drawing the purists in though, seriously.

Promise pro/rel at 16 teams. Never hit 16 teams.

You can't do pro/rel if you promise it at 16 teams and never hit that ;)

pure genius 

edit: not a genuis haha

Edited by GuillermoDelQuarto

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1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

That would require at least 32 professional teams. That's decades away. The whole of the US only has 46. 

Well then,  it's a good thing I didn't preface my proposed solution with a timeline for rollout

Edited by Oranje

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14 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

It would be a little weird having pro/rel with salary caps/restriction..

Pro/rel can't exist in a hard-capped league. Maybe with a MLB-style soft cap, but I don't think that works in the context of the CPL.

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2 hours ago, Blackdude said:

Still it's something. Now the question is will we ever get to 16 teams?

I'm sure we could get to 16 teams if we really wanted to.

I just hope no one is holding their breath on getting to 16 financially-sustainable teams at a NASL/USL level.

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