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CPL General

CanPL General  

297 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the CanPL have Pro/Rel?

    • Yes
      165
    • No
      132
  2. 2. Should the CanPL have playoffs?

    • Yes
      188
    • No
      109


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7 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

Didn’t Schaad say that CPL was going to be awarded a spot, and not just a second for Canadian teams? That doesn’t leave much doubt for how the position will be won, or suggest that past performances had any roll in the decision

No he said there was speculation  about it. Could be serious talk, could just be fan chatter on here or twitter (cause it's happening along side a lot of talk here lately). No idea really.

His follow up point is interesting

 

Edited by matty

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16 minutes ago, matty said:

LOL somebody just wants likes. But seriously what's confusing about there being 2 valid arguments about how a new spot should be awarded? One that honours past performance and another that will boost a league's credibility. Just tell me I'm curious

Three arguments: A place in CCL goes to the winner of each country's domestic league because when you win the league you have earned it. And everyone has the opportunity to play in the league if they want that CCL place. (i.e. Nothing to do with trying to bestow credibility on the league -- as if a CCL place would suddenly bestow credibility on a league that otherwise would not have it.)

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10 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

Three arguments: A place in CCL goes to the winner of each country's domestic league because when you win the league you have earned it. And everyone has the opportunity to play in the league if they want that CCL place. (i.e. Nothing to do with trying to bestow credibility on the league -- as if a CCL place would suddenly bestow credibility on a league that otherwise would not have it.)

You know a spot would bring the league a degree of credibility otherwise we wouldn't want it to have one.

I get you point here and it's fine in theory but not every league in the region gets to send its winner to CCL automatically because of the CONCACAF set up. If CONCACAF didn't have a dumb system I would get behind your point.

The CPL should get the spot because, yes, it is fair and will boost the league but there is a case one could make for the VCup/MLS teams.

Edited by matty

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35 minutes ago, matty said:

LOL somebody just wants likes. But seriously what's confusing about there being 2 valid arguments about how a new spot should be awarded? One that honours past performance and another that will boost a league's credibility. Just tell me I'm curious

Lol actually if you noticed when I joined you'd see that I post very little...considering how long I've been here...so it's obvious that I don't care about likes. You have a point in one sense but at the same time Montreal was the first Canadian team to be successful in the Champions League...before they joined the MLS so I don't think we owe them jack shit.

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4 minutes ago, matty said:

You know a spot would bring the league a degree of credibility otherwise we wouldn't want it to have one.

I get you point here and it's fine in theory but not every league in the region gets to send its winner to CCL automatically because of the CONCACAF set up. If CONCACAF didn't have a dumb system I would get behind your point.

CPL credibility has no bearing whatsoever on my position that the CCL place should go to CPL. 

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41 minutes ago, matty said:

LOL somebody just wants likes. But seriously what's confusing about there being 2 valid arguments about how a new spot should be awarded? One that honours past performance and another that will boost a league's credibility. Just tell me I'm curious

When intelligent argument fails, resort to ad hominem attacks.

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6 minutes ago, longlugan said:

Lol actually if you noticed when I joined you'd see that I post very little...considering how long I've been here...so it's obvious that I don't care about likes. You have a point in one sense but at the same time Montreal was the first Canadian team to be successful in the Champions League...before they joined the MLS so I don't think we owe them jack shit.

I did but figured "hey everyone likes to feel liked sometimes". Now your last point is very true but we've been to 2 finals and a semi-final under MLS teams in more recent years so the case for that position is still strong. It's fine if you think they're not owed shit but there are likely people in key places that might disagree and would stand up if the spot became available.

5 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

CPL credibility has no bearing whatsoever on my position that the CCL place should go to CPL. 

So you just want it? Is there any other reason? You agree there is weight to it ?

 

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... I see trolling is that you Tg13

 

In the current state, i think everyone can understand why the Voyaguers Cup winner would currently be awared a CONCACAF Champions League (CCL) spot. Simply because the CPL hasnt kicked a ball yet. 

But I think lots of logical thinking needs to be done if it continues to be so, even past a few seasons of the CPLs existence.

The reality is the CSAs D1 governed sanctioned league will always play 3x as much games as the VC that they administer. So which champion is deemed greater? One would assume the league champs, as it would help achieve the CSAs plan of exposing & developing Canadians on the CONCACAF stage. 

Another thing, take a look at the CCL now. The qualified teams are only league champions or league runners up of their respective leagues (or CONCACAF League champions) .... only in the USA is the cup champion (which I even think should be given to SS champ/r-u and MLS Cup champ/r-u) awarded a CCL spot. 

I think that the Canadian MLS teams being connected to that makes it weird for them in cases like Toronto FC in 2017. But isnt the CanadianToo movement about trying to distant ourselves from being dependent on the USSF? That's why I can see the CSA making the MLS teams have to qualify to the CCL through winning the CL via the VC Champs. 

Now thats if the CSA is awarded 1+1...significant changes to the tournament would have to be made if they are awarded two automatic CCL berths. Yes it would be ideal/beneficial for both CPL and MLS teams. But again, where would the logic be in that when some federations with proven history are only awarded 1 CCL berth - See Costa Rica. 

Very loaded, but prove me wrong. 

Edited by Jahinho Guerro

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It is fascinating that the Voyageurs board is almost unanimously dedicated to demeaning the cup that we donated and bears our name, but that is the short term "Dory from Nemo" sort of memory  many have come to expect these days. 

I will never speak out against the V-Cup being given a primary spot for Canadian rep, since now and for the future, perhaps always, it represents Canadian soccer across leagues. 

I find this year's format frankly insulting, however, with arbitrary seedings, without a draw, and TFC being babied with potentially only 4 games to repeat, just because they are holders. No Cup in the world favours a holder so blatantly. THAT is also denigrating to the Cup's integrity.

After a year's play, or well into it, we'll be in a situation to request to Concacaf a 2nd spot, based on previous results, which we give to our national champion. That way, potentially, both spots can go to CPL teams, and MLS teams can only, ever, get one.

Doesn't Concacaf have a working set of coefficients based on club competitions in the region, so we can really know who deserves to be getting byes, spots, etc? Or is it just decided by eye-balling relative league size and club power? Because it is true, if they had a coefficient system, that we'd be at least third over the last 5 years, even with one sole rep.

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I think that the Voyageur's Cup should still hold onto the primary spot, with the CPL being given a spot in CCONCACAF League. 

I think that if a second spot was awarded to the Voyageur's Cup competition, it would demean the Cup itself, as their would be less incentive to win the final

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The Voyageurs Cup includes every professional Canadian club in the country (and some semi-pro clubs).

It has a history spanning 15+ years. In Canadian soccer terms, that's enormous.

On top of it all, the cup was funded by, and donated by, the most committed of Canadian soccer supporters, back in the days of few of them existing, and the CMNT playing its home matches in Kingston.

If Canada gets two spots of different value towards the CCL, the winner of the Cup should get the most valuable one.

If we want CPL teams to get an automatic-entry into the CCL, there's an avenue for them to do so: win the Cup. Be proud of doing so. Get your fans on board.

I don't understand people who want to diminish the value of (what I judge to be) one of the biggest contribution of Canadian soccer supporters. We get it. Your pro-CPL extends to diminishing anything else happening in the Canadian soccer universe. You don't need to be a reverse BringBackTheBlizzard because of it.

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16 minutes ago, Sébastien said:

The Voyageurs Cup includes every professional Canadian club in the country (and some semi-pro clubs).

It has a history spanning 15+ years. In Canadian soccer terms, that's enormous.

On top of it all, the cup was funded by, and donated by, the most committed of Canadian soccer supporters, back in the days of few of them existing, and the CMNT playing its home matches in Kingston.

If Canada gets two spots of different value towards the CCL, the winner of the Cup should get the most valuable one. 

If we want CPL teams to get an automatic-entry into the CCL, there's an avenue for them to do so: win the Cup. Be proud of doing so. Get your fans on board.

I don't understand people who want to diminish the value of (what I judge to be) one of the biggest contribution of Canadian soccer supporters. We get it. Your pro-CPL extends to diminishing anything else happening in the Canadian soccer universe. You don't need to be a reverse BringBackTheBlizzard because of it. 

Most people are arguing that we should get 2 CCL spots, 1 for the Canadian Cup and the other for the CPL Champions. We should all rally behind that and push together towards that goal.

It get frankly freaking ridiculous when people argue that we either shouldn't get 2 CCL or that both should go towards the V Cup, because CPL hasn't "earned" it.

Most are saying

  • Can we not be the exception and do like most leagues out there...send our league champions to CCL???

That's all. We, as a group should agree on 2 CCL and collectively push for that, not debating hypothetical scenarios just because someone's bored and needs some self-amusement and posts stuff just to divides us into a MLS vs CPL war which is POINTLESS. It's doable to celebrate what MLS teams has achieved AND recognizing that our D1 champions should be there.

Let's just as one voice push for 2 CCL, one for each.

Personally, any extra like additional CCL or CL spots should go to CPL, because that's the norm, not because of a CPL biais

Edited by Ansem

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9 hours ago, longlugan said:

Lol actually if you noticed when I joined you'd see that I post very little...considering how long I've been here...so it's obvious that I don't care about likes. You have a point in one sense but at the same time Montreal was the first Canadian team to be successful in the Champions League...before they joined the MLS so I don't think we owe them jack shit.

Don’t sweat it, @matty likes to throw out questionable accusations if he doesn’t like your point. 

I agree with @Unnamed Trialist .. the Voyageurs Cup always needs to be #1 so long as we have MLS v CPL.  It’s the best domestic cup in Concacaf and will only get better in the years to come.  If you take a CCL berth away then it’s no longer a priority to teams.  I think it would actually be much better for CPL as a whole if we went for two CONCACAF league spots over one CCL spot.  That way we have more teams and more matches against teams we can compete with.. and hey if we win it’s a spot in the CCL.

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2 hours ago, deschamp86 said:

I think that the Voyageur's Cup should still hold onto the primary spot, with the CPL being given a spot in CCONCACAF League. 

I think that if a second spot was awarded to the Voyageur's Cup competition, it would demean the Cup itself, as their would be less incentive to win the final

Exactly.. that final should be win at all costs.  No second chances or consolation prizes.  The Voyageurs Cup should be put on a pedestal at all times because it’s the furthest stretching competition in this country. 

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Personally I'd like to see CPL get a CCL spot for the league winner and CL spot for the league runner up along with the existing CCL spot for the Voyageurs Cup winner.

It's not like CONCACAF is flush with countries and leagues anyway. So I don't see why giving these spots should be a huge issue. 

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32 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Don’t sweat it, @matty likes to throw out questionable accusations if he doesn’t like your point. 

I agree with @Unnamed Trialist .. the Voyageurs Cup always needs to be #1 so long as we have MLS v CPL.  It’s the best domestic cup in Concacaf and will only get better in the years to come.  If you take a CCL berth away then it’s no longer a priority to teams.  I think it would actually be much better for CPL as a whole if we went for two CONCACAF league spots over one CCL spot.  That way we have more teams and more matches against teams we can compete with.. and hey if we win it’s a spot in the CCL.

what was a questionable accusation  about a joke that someone wants to win the day or get likes? he legit said something funny, i laughed and nodded yea i'm annoying as shit and was like he's gonna get lots of like for that

Edited by matty

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8 minutes ago, matty said:

what was a questionable accusation  about a joke that someone wants to win the day or get likes? he legit said something funny, i laughed and nodded yea i'm annoying as shit and was like he's gonna get lots of like for that

No worries Matty...I wasn't offended in the least bit...much more serious issues in this world to take umbrage with.

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1 minute ago, longlugan said:

No worries Matty...I wasn't offended in the least bit...much more serious issues in this world to take umbrage with.

Reasonableness and tolerance are considered signs of suspicious behavior.

Cease and desist and react hysterically to all things please.

 

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41 minutes ago, Sébastien said:

However, if it's one CL and one CCL, you're arguing that something should be taken away from the Voyageurs Cup to give to the CPL. I disagree.

That's not my decision to make. My opinion is out there so I'll stick to pointing out the norm in the soccer world. The CSA (under Montagliani) sanctioned CPL as D1 so they (CSA under Reid) might want to own up to it at some point. The norm would point to CPL having the CCL spot, which rewards a team being the best out of 28 games vs. the V Cup who can be won in 3 or 4 games with that ridiculous format which devalues the Cup if you ask me. It's not us fans who are "asking" to devalue the cup to profit CPL, it's the CSA doing that all by themselves by coming up with "questionable" formats and ridiculous bye like TFC just got.

Those using the "CPL has to earn a CCL spot" argument, stop deluding yourselves. It's all politics. If the CSA was under Montagliani, MLS and CPL clubs would have started at the same time and he would have most likely put the CCL spot on CPL ahead the V Cup...sending a message to the 3 teams most likely

But the CSA is now under Reid, who clearly, wants to accommodate everyone (Starting CPL teams with D3 and below USL) and who doesn't run the CSA like Montagliani (who would have put USL with D3 while CPL with MLS). That's what we have under Reid, so the V Cup will most likely have the CCL spot locked down under his regime.

But my point is that whoever runs the CSA ultimately decides what goes on going forward, its politics and "merits" have NOTHING to do with it. You think MLS "merits" 4 CCL spots or was it political?

All I'm saying, it would be better energy spent to collectively push the CSA to get TWO CCL Spots (which celebrates what MLS teams has done AND embrace CPL as our D1) and hold them to that instead of wasting time on putting a hierarchy on who's more important...BOTH are important to Canadian Soccer. Us being divided doesn't help accomplish the ultimate goal. It's politics, so we should "lobby" for both, that's what you do in a political environment.

@socceronlyIt would be awesome if the V Forums send some kind of official letter on behalf of all of us pushing for that, but we need consensus, not pointless debates. I think this forums could be a force to improve Canadian Soccer as some kind of lobby group. We adopt a position collectively and we tell the CSA about our position. If the majority wants the V Cup to be #1 above else, so be it. But this forum can be so much more than a place for pointless debates and personal attacks. Just my idea of what more can be accomplish with this forum and how you could grow the numbers of people joining it... Empower us to be able to collectively be able to lobby/perhaps makes a difference (the more we are the better) and more people might actually join and get involve if they know they would be heard. Just my opinion of course

 

Edited by Ansem

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8 minutes ago, socceronly said:

Reasonableness and tolerance are considered signs of suspicious behavior.

Cease and desist and react hysterically to all things please.

 

My apologies...I'm usually only like that when my wife is looking for an argument🙄

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I'm confused, what are we debating here? Didn't Peter tweet that CPL was going to get it's own spot, meaning Canada will have two?

One for the best CPL club, and one for the winner of the V cup as usual. 

Edited by Chad_Impact

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I can't see them moving the V cup spot to the CPL.   The CSA is moving to expand the cup not diminish it, giving every player in this country a (albeit lofty) goal of really playing for something.  I think (hope) that concern is not a real one.  

The Voyageurs > The Forum.  

We are not the forum, so for this becoming a lobby group it wouldn't be a productive use of our time.  We can't even agree on if cheese goes in sandwiches of if the earth is flat or not.

I think codifying positions would be more divisive, not a solution to disagreements. 

The forum does need to get a greater sense of a cooperative goal for the greater good of the game and in general a more positive "hey lets go for a beer attitude".  A few things deeply hurt this goal.  A decade of nasty city vs city club related bullshit is one.  The second is, which also coincided with the first was the rise of social media and the subsequent devolution of all public conversation. 

I'll make a more detailed post on this elsewhere to start a discussion on it. 

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38 minutes ago, Chad_Impact said:

I'm confused, what are we debating here? Didn't Peter tweet that CPL was going to get it's own spot, meaning Canada will have two?

One for the best CPL club, and one for the winner of the V cup as usual.

No tweeted there was speculation about it  It's at the top of this page

Edited by matty

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