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CPL new teams speculation

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5 hours ago, Impactsupporter said:

agree that the D1 should have 14 teams BUT I still favor splitting them up into 2 groups of 7 with pro rel between them (but not the D2 or D3) modelled after the Currie Cup

If you're getting relegated out the top 7, then your next 7 IS division 2 by definition, no?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I am also of the opinion that once you consolidate 12-14 teams in a D1, D2 may not be such a high priority. And it'll be hard to have a league structure worrying about setting up a D2 with less money, more financial headaches, weaker stadium structure, fan base, and so on.

It might make sense for the CSA and CPL together to get every province or region up to par with Québec and Ontario for a stronger semi-pro structure on that level.

What might be higher priority, in fact, is to have academy structures for CPL teams, since development always goes better if there is a pro club behind it, as an international norm (your Sigmas, however effective in Canada, are outliers). 

You touched on something I thought of a while back that I had forgotten about. For div 2 in my opinion the ideal scenario (assuming there aren't tons of teams looking to jump to CPL all at the same time) might be to fill up the div 3 level, and then when enough of those teams are interested in taking the next step, create a div 2 and promote up to it from div 3 (of course with a chance at promotion to CPL from there).

It would be a bit clunky for CPL to go from a 15 team league down to an 8 team league after the 16th team joins and it splits into D1 and D2. Even a 10 - 6 split would be tough to handle. However, if we get to 15 teams and have a D3 league or two west of Ontario, and possibly one east of Quebec, then maybe we can have say 4 D3 teams across the country interested in moving up to D2, 1 expansion team that would have otherwise gone to CPL, and maybe relegate one from CPL if need be, and then you've got 14 teams still in D1 and 6 in D2. Then try to grow the D2 from there (either through big pocketed expansion, or promotion from D3 without relegation down) and the days of teams waltzing straight into CPL are over.

Basically, stockpile teams in D3 until you have enough to make the jump without poaching too much from D1. Of course this is still heavily reliant on massive growth, in particular at the D3 level, but it's a nice little dream in my opinion.

Edited by Kent
pronoun mistake

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Posted (edited)

I don't understand why CPL clubs aren't establishing youth teams to compete in local leagues. It would help them connect with the local soccer community, and it would help them keep an eye on local talent. I don't see the harm. They wouldn't need to invest much money into it. Just run it like all the other local clubs. Hell, just adopt one of the local clubs and run it the same way. 

Thoughts?

Edited by C2SKI

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22 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

I don't understand why CPL clubs aren't establishing youth teams to compete in local leagues. It would help them connect with the local soccer community, and it would help them keep an eye on local talent. I don't see the harm. They wouldn't need to invest much money into it. Just run it like all the other local clubs. Hell, just adopt one of the local clubs and run it the same way. 

Thoughts?

You mean this?

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Posted (edited)

I've been doing some thinking about the purpose of the CPL. My son is always trying to play at the highest level in order to play against the best. The more clubs you have a top level, the more diluted the product becomes. If CPL kept Div 1 small (8-10 clubs), then theoretically the best players would gravitate towards those Div 1 clubs, refining the level of play faster and faster. Those that couldn't keep up would get relegated to Div 2 until they could take another run at playing with the best. With 6 Canadians guaranteed to start on each club, an 8-team Div 1 would have 48 players playing at the highest level outside MLS.

Additionally, my research showed that many of the best nations have leagues where they relegate 20% of the teams from Div 1 every season. If an 8-club Div 1 relegated 2 clubs per season, that would be a 25% changeover. Imagine the stresses to perform on the players in those clubs where if you aren't playing for a title, you're fighting off relegation. There would be no middle ground.

Those nation's with second divisions, getting promoted almost invariably involve playoffs - usually the first team in a single table is automatically promoted, but there are usually playoffs for the spots below. As CPL adds more teams, having a fluid Div 2 structure would allow those teams to learn the ropes at a lower level while keeping the format stable at the top, so fans, players, and media alike all know the annual dates for all important events and matches.

Sorry for the rambling post - my stream of consciousness thinking is going off on all sorts of tangents lately regarding the CPL.

Edited by Initial B

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You mean this?

🤦‍♂️ haha I'm glad some clubs are listening 

45 minutes ago, Initial B said:

The more clubs you have a top level, the more diluted the product becomes. If CPL kept Div 1 small (8-10 clubs), then theoretically the best players would gravitate towards those Div 1 clubs, refining the level of play faster and faster.

As it's a global market, I'm not sure that dilution of the talent pool is a major determinant of overall quality. There are plenty of Canadians playing abroad right now that could improve the quality of this league. I think that the ability to retain and attract talent might be more important, and to do that, you need revenue. To increase revenue, you may need more than 8 teams in your top division. I don't know. Dilution of the fan base probably plays a role too. 

Edited by C2SKI

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8 hours ago, Tigers said:

If you're getting relegated out the top 7, then your next 7 IS division 2 by definition, no?

You can say that it COULD be defined as a d2 BUT these teams will still be under the CPL banner, just 2 groups Group A and Group B, or Leaders and Legends, Beast and Least, whatever.

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5 hours ago, Impactsupporter said:

You can say that it COULD be defined as a d2 BUT these teams will still be under the CPL banner, just 2 groups Group A and Group B, or Leaders and Legends, Beast and Least, whatever.

You can call it whatever you want, but if you have a pro-real mechanism between two tiered pools of teams, the lower/relegated division is pretty much a de facto D2.  In England they refer to it as "the Championship" - but it is still D2.  Everything else is just semantics.  

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Posted (edited)

Setting up a D2 will have a lot to do with scheduling. It is where you put teams in waiting for eventually entering the D1, plus others with no intention to do so.

As we sit, we have designed a schedule for 8 teams, seeing every team twice home and away, 7x4 = 28 games. An eighth team rounds that out. A ninth team takes us to 32 games in a season. A tenth, to 36. That is already maxing out if you want a balanced schedule, because we do not have the weather to stretch things much more, and want to avoid excess midday matches. But it is possible.

After ten teams, and up to 13 or so, you have a bit of a headache. You are almost certainly forced to think about a regular season and then a championship round, or add playoffs, or go to a very unbalanced schedule. 

At  about 14 you can once again redraw a balanced home and away schedule with 26 league matches. Maybe the earlier Cup rounds add fixtures. But you are at least close to what current teams are offering their fans, 14+1. Reducing a match or two is no tragedy, you can always do a guaranteed friendly vs a visiting team, for example, or a team can do a pre-season tournament. 

So I am proposing that a D2 is a sort of holding league for future D1 teams, and for others who do not see it viable to make a move into D1 but could conceive competiting in a lower tier. 

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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The local college is trying to acquire a sports field in downtown Charlottetown. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-holland-college-event-grounds-progress-1.5055114

Probably Utopian, but it would be nice if they could "future-proof" their plans so that a D2-level team could eventually use something like this as their home field.  Immediate proximity to our second biggest post-secondary institution and walking distance to the downtown bar scene (though Islanders tend to view "walking distance" more skeptically than most...). 

I doubt it is on the radar, but the location is right on the water, and you would only have so many opportunities to access that kind of real estate close to the downtown core.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

After ten teams, and up to 13 or so, you have a bit of a headache. You are almost certainly forced to think about a regular season and then a championship round, or add playoffs, or go to a very unbalanced schedule. 

That's the beauty of the Apertura/Clausura, you don't have to have a balanced schedule, just choose the number of games you want to play, divide the season in half and the winner of each half has a chance to win the title. NASL used it even as it added additional teams, so why not CPL while it fleshes out its structure?

Edited by Initial B

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34 minutes ago, Initial B said:

That's the beauty of the Apertura/Clausura, you don't have to have a balanced schedule, just choose the number of games you want to play, divide the season in half and the winner of each half has a chance to win the title. NASL used it even as it added additional teams, so why not CPL while it fleshes out its structure?

I think if you analyse what I am saying, you'll see that is not a solution at all: you cannot avoid an unbalanced schedule by dividing it in half. Or maybe I don't understand you, you'll have to explain how two halves solves not playing each team the same number of times home and away.

I know that in N America we are used to unbalanced schedules, but they are previews to widely participated playoffs which are essentially systems to accomodate margin of error and soften the injustice of the regular season. 

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Posted (edited)

I understand that it's unbalanced, and you can't fight that while the league expands and teams don't fall within certain multiples. But does the general public (who they're trying to convert) care? I think the CPL execs realize that they will not have a 28-game, completely fair schedule until they get First Division to either 8 or 15 teams. Once that  Div 1 stability is reached, they'll start working on doing the same at Div 2, even as it expands.

In the meantime, they will continue with the Apertura/Clausura format and have playoffs without calling them as such (though I understand not wanting the general public's perception thinking playoffs will be normal for the CPL). It's also why I think the CPL will split into Div 1 and Div 2 as soon as it is viable to do so, which would be at 16 total teams. 

Edited by Initial B

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38 minutes ago, Initial B said:

I understand that it's unbalanced, and you can't fight that while the league expands and teams don't fall within certain multiples. I think the CPL execs realize that they will not have a 28-game, completely fair schedule until they get First Division to either 8 or 15 teams. Once that  Div 1 stability is reached, they'll start working on doing the same at Div 2, even as it expands.

In the meantime, they will continue with the Apertura/Clausura format and have playoffs without calling them as such (though I understand not wanting to get the general public thinking playoffs will be normal for the CPL). It's also why I think the CPL will split into Div 1 and Div 2 as soon as it is viable to do so, which would be at 16 total teams. 

I personally think they won't repeat this year's format. If they do have a first and then second half, and get the champ from that, let it be two even seasons. 

Even then, I don't like that final match between winners of two halves, because one is recent, the other far off, and the final does not correspond to a clear curve of winning form.

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True, but I think the CPL has made certain statements and they don't want public perception of backtracking for at least the first couple of years. I think we're looking at Apertura/Clausura at least until they split Div 1 and Div 2. The fact that they're starting using the same format the NASL did makes me think the Faths have had some influence on league structure and growth plan using their experiences in that league.

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