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Octavio Zambrano

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6 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

I also liked Zambrano's desire to play games, and get the squad together.

Herdman has shown no such drive. He isn't pushing for more games, if anything he's fine with no games. To me that smacks of complacency, like he knows his job with the CSA is safe and "no games necessary" is the party line.

http://www.sportingnews.com/ca/soccer/news/canada-soccer-john-herdman-canmnt-play-more-games-concacaf-nations-league/1js0e4nh8r5od159rcuzu6a03o

As the Herdman states "Canada not interested in playing more games, yet".  A lot of excuses in this article.  I'm not saying that these decisions are Herdman's own decisions.

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11 hours ago, Keegan said:

So you’re saying Herdman chose for us to play 3 minnows with no friendlies other than NZ?  I think we all know that is false. 

Even if we did assume that to be true, the one friendly was a tougher start than our past two managers who faced Mauritania and Curacao respectively... so I guess Floro and Zambrano had no balls either.  

As Kent said.. he doesn’t deserve credit or an award.  He simply hasn’t screwed up as of yet, so bashing is premature. 

Herdman did in fact choose to not play friendlies vs. harder opponents and be satisfied with ingratiating his native land and then playing minnows in a new fangled tournaments. That is true, actually. Unless you are arguing that he has so little pull with the CSA that he can't ask for more. Which would mean he is being blackballed from the start? We all know that is false: he has chosen to not test us this last year. Low-lying survival tactics, like a politician in his first year of a mandate.

And actually, with Floro and then Zambrano, we played Mauritania twice in a few days, when their ranking was only slightly lower than New Zealands, and when they were on a run, they'd risen like 60 spots in the previous year. So that was two games, not just one. Curaçao, if you'd check, had a higher ranking than New Zealand. So you cannot argue that NZ was a tougher start, that is patently false.

But that is not what worries folks. What concerns us is that we have seen Canada play games in lead-ups to World Cups vs. participating teams, even top teams. And we did not. We have seen Canada play teams ranked well above us in friendlies. And we haven't. We have seen Canada at least have the ambition to try our mettle against harder opponents, which is how any team learns, improves, and can be properly evaluated. And we haven't. 

For me, I am fine with waiting to see how we do in the Gold Cup, and do not even ask for results, as it could depend on how the tournament goes, the draw, and so on. So I think I am being fair. But I also think it is fair to say that Herdman is like a kid playing hide and seek, and when all the rest have gone in for lunch, he is still cowering behind a bush. And people like you are praising him for winning at hide and seek. 

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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9 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Herdman did in fact choose to not play friendlies vs. harder opponents and be satisfied with ingratiating his native land and then playing minnows in a new fangled tournaments. That is true, actually. Unless you are arguing that he has so little pull with the CSA that he can't ask for more. Which would mean he is being blackballed from the start? We all know that is false: he has chosen to not test us this last year. Low-lying survival tactics, like a politician in his first year of a mandate.

And actually, with Floro and then Zambrano, we played Mauritania twice in a few days, when their ranking was only slightly lower than New Zealands, and when they were on a run, they'd risen like 60 spots in the previous year. So that was two games, not just one. Curaçao, if you'd check, had a higher ranking than New Zealand. So you cannot argue that NZ was a tougher start, that is patently false.

But that is not what worries folks. What concerns us is that we have seen Canada play games in lead-ups to World Cups vs. participating teams, even top teams. And we did not. We have seen Canada play teams ranked well above us in friendlies. And we haven't. We have seen Canada at least have the ambition to try our mettle against harder opponents, which is how any team learns, improves, and can be properly evaluated. And we haven't. 

For me, I am fine with waiting to see how we do in the Gold Cup, and do not even ask for results, as it could depend on how the tournament goes, the draw, and so on. So I think I am being fair. But I also think it is fair to say that Herdman is like a kid playing hide and seek, and when all the rest have gone in for lunch, he is still cowering behind a bush. And people like you are praising him for winning at hide and seek. 

Herdman has cap tied several key players so far this year but by only playing 4 games in a calendar year IS NOT going to attract all the young talented dual nationals we have right now.

For instance lets look at Portugal & England (for no particular reason 😉).  Although this could be done with many of our dual nationals.

2018 Canada MNT: Friendlies 1 game vs New Zealand - CONCACAF NL 3 - US Virgin Islands, Dominca & St Kitts; Total - 4 Games

2018 Canada Men's Youth: Failure to Qualify to U20 World Cup (Most dual nationals too old for this tournament)

2018 Portugal MNT: Friendlies 7 games vs Egypt, Netherlands, Tunisia, Belgium, Algeria, Croatia & Scotland - FIFA World Cup 4 games vs Spain, Morocco, Iran & Uruguay - UEFA NL 4 games vs Italy & Poland twice & Semifinal bound in 2019; Total 15 Games

2018 Portugal U21: 8 Euro Qualifying Games Alone

2018 England MNT: 6 Friendlies vs Netherlands, Italy, Nigeria, Costa Rica, Switzerland & USA - FIFA World Cup 7 games vs Tunisia, Panama, Belgium, Colombia, Sweden, Croatia & Belgium - UEFA NL 4 games vs Spain & Croatia twice & Semifinal bound in 2019; Total 17 Games

2018 England U21: 5 Euro Qualifying Games and a Trip to U21 Euros in 2019.

We all know there are many factors and reasons for these differences.  These are long standing historically National Teams which we are not.  These programs have far greater funding than we have.  These teams have far less travel time for European friendlies.  I understand it is a process and that there are many factors in play but I can't imagine our program looking attractive to dual nationals.  Games & Camps are important!

The irony in this whole argument is that 2018 was arguably our most successful season in cap tying.

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59 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Herdman did in fact choose to not play friendlies vs. harder opponents and be satisfied with ingratiating his native land and then playing minnows in a new fangled tournaments. That is true, actually. Unless you are arguing that he has so little pull with the CSA that he can't ask for more. Which would mean he is being blackballed from the start? We all know that is false: he has chosen to not test us this last year. Low-lying survival tactics, like a politician in his first year of a mandate.

And actually, with Floro and then Zambrano, we played Mauritania twice in a few days, when their ranking was only slightly lower than New Zealands, and when they were on a run, they'd risen like 60 spots in the previous year. So that was two games, not just one. Curaçao, if you'd check, had a higher ranking than New Zealand. So you cannot argue that NZ was a tougher start, that is patently false.

But that is not what worries folks. What concerns us is that we have seen Canada play games in lead-ups to World Cups vs. participating teams, even top teams. And we did not. We have seen Canada play teams ranked well above us in friendlies. And we haven't. We have seen Canada at least have the ambition to try our mettle against harder opponents, which is how any team learns, improves, and can be properly evaluated. And we haven't. 

For me, I am fine with waiting to see how we do in the Gold Cup, and do not even ask for results, as it could depend on how the tournament goes, the draw, and so on. So I think I am being fair. But I also think it is fair to say that Herdman is like a kid playing hide and seek, and when all the rest have gone in for lunch, he is still cowering behind a bush. And people like you are praising him for winning at hide and seek. 

England?

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4 hours ago, Corazon said:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ca/soccer/news/canada-soccer-john-herdman-canmnt-play-more-games-concacaf-nations-league/1js0e4nh8r5od159rcuzu6a03o

As the Herdman states "Canada not interested in playing more games, yet".  A lot of excuses in this article.  I'm not saying that these decisions are Herdman's own decisions.

It is quite strange. The normal thing is for a coach to try to play as many matches as possible to fine-tune the chemistry and integration of its players. It seems that he is folowing the guidelines of the CSA to save a few dollars avoiding playing friendly matches. Maybe Zambrano wanted to play more matches, causing more expenses of money to the CSA ..... In the end, only Zambrano, Hermann and the CSA know the real reason for the departure of the Ecuadorian coach. What remains is to speculate.

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50 minutes ago, xabuep2 said:

It is quite strange. The normal thing is for a coach to try to play as many matches as possible to fine-tune the chemistry and integration of its players. It seems that he is folowing the guidelines of the CSA to save a few dollars avoiding playing friendly matches. Maybe Zambrano wanted to play more matches, causing more expenses of money to the CSA ..... In the end, only Zambrano, Hermann and the CSA know the real reason for the departure of the Ecuadorian coach. What remains is to speculate.

This is my thought as well. 

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4 hours ago, Kent said:

I'm curious, can anyone think of another coach of any team in any sport that had so many haters from their new team's fan base before the team lost or even tied a game?

Find me a situation where a federation fires a coach who seemed to be doing well without explanation and hires immediately an insider federation guy with no proper hiring process and then the team hardly plays any games for a full year other than against some minnow teams and I think you will find similar reactions from that country's fans. Even New Zealand was without its best players but even removing them from the picture, we should beat the other three teams if you or I was coach so don't tell me to celebrate these victories.

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5 hours ago, Obinna said:

England?

Adopted homeland, or second home, or similar, meant to say. He had all the connection for personal reasons, nothing else.

What about the other 98% of the post though?

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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47 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Adopted homeland, or second home, or similar, meant to say. He had all the connection for personal reasons, nothing else.

What about the other 98% of the post though?

Well first of all I see that you are speaking positively about us playing Mauritania twice in a few days. Yet, in other threads I believe it was you who suggested that one match per window is optimal, as it provides adequate training time which is of the upmost importance. It seems to me you are throwing that opinion out of the window for the purpose of this particular argument.

Secondly, I don't really care we played New Zealand at that time. And I see nothing wrong with using his connections to line up that friendly. Coaches should use the connections they have, right?

I understand you may see it as lazy or as some sort of sort of way to ease himself into the job with an "easy" opponent, but again, I don't care if that was the case. If I am looking to confirm my bias that Herdman is self-serving, that's another matter aside from whether the NZ game was good/bad for the team.

In any case, at that moment, we were a long way out from any meaningful matches, so I don't think we had to prepare in the form of scheduling an away in CONCACF or anything, though I wouldn't complain if we had.

Basically, I think it's a lot of fuss about something relatively trivial.

Edited by Obinna

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3 hours ago, Grizzly said:

Find me a situation where a federation fires a coach who seemed to be doing well without explanation and hires immediately an insider federation guy with no proper hiring process and then the team hardly plays any games for a full year other than against some minnow teams and I think you will find similar reactions from that country's fans. Even New Zealand was without its best players but even removing them from the picture, we should beat the other three teams if you or I was coach so don't tell me to celebrate these victories.

I’ll repeat what I said earlier in the thread. “Nobody is saying you have to give him credit yet. We are saying it makes sense to wait for something meaningful to complain about before you complain.

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Thats the whole point, nothing meaningful has happened!!  He came in full of promises of new directions, sweeping changes etc!  It seems like more of the same, or even less of the the same old same old?   And we are another year down the road.  We have good young talent coming up (superstar), the CPL is starting in the spring, the WC is coming, conditions are ripe for someone like Herdman to make progress, on the field, in the boardroom with potential sponsors and with the general public.  Its been a year, lets start seeing something, or is he all talk??  

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46 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Thats the whole point, nothing meaningful has happened!!  He came in full of promises of new directions, sweeping changes etc!  It seems like more of the same, or even less of the the same old same old?   And we are another year down the road.  We have good young talent coming up (superstar), the CPL is starting in the spring, the WC is coming, conditions are ripe for someone like Herdman to make progress, on the field, in the boardroom with potential sponsors and with the general public.  Its been a year, lets start seeing something, or is he all talk??  

It's a matter of perspective....

Another perspective is:

it has ONLY been a year, or more specifically, 4 games! What exactly were you expecting? 10-nil scorelines in each game? I mean, really though, c'mon. Be realistic and remember that sweeping changes take time. I don't think even Herdman would suggest that sweeping changes can be achieved in a year.

At the same time though, I do get your perspective. In some ways, it feels like the same old disjointed Canada. That being said, I would describe his team building (for lack or a better word) approach as a breath of fresh air at the very least. If you need clarification on what exactly I am referring to, let me know and I'll dig up some examples.

For now though, the results are the same with some positive signs. Gold Cup will be the real test.

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I wasnt expecting alot I'm a canadian fan, but thats the whole point Obinna.  Anyone who believed all the baloney and hyberbole coming from Herdman would have to be surprised that we played less games, less camps, and he hasnt seemingly taken advantage of all the positive things going on around him.  Hart, Floro etc etc these guys didnt have the WC coming, Davies getting world wide exposure, the CPL building up grass roots interest across the country.  I'm having a hard time seeing positive signs that I can attribute to Herdman. 

The team has taken care of business against minnows, hasnt looked particularly sharp, and he could have gotten more camps/games to do more team building but we havnt.  Whose fault is that?  Of course the real games will be the real test but this doesnt seem like the exciting ambititous first year of the transformational young coach that HAD to be hired with no job search because he might get away from us.  But you are right, its in the perspective, he came in with alot of shiny buzz words and it seems like a lot of the same shit.  I guess we\ll see how camp poutine goes with our tune up friendly.

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51 minutes ago, Obinna said:

it has ONLY been a year, or more specifically, 4 games!

Yes and you have stated precisely the problem. Only 4 games, 3 of which were against minnows and the other against a still not very good team which was missing some of it better players.

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

That being said, I would describe his team building (for lack or a better word) approach as a breath of fresh air at the very least. If you need clarification on what exactly I am referring to, let me know and I'll dig up some examples.

I don't see any evidence on the pitch that he is team building. I do not put a lot of stock in either Herdman's claims nor players praise of a new coach who control whether they get selected and play, the former is self promotion, the later what you say when you want playing time. What I think would contribute greatly to team building is playing games and having training camps.

 

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I am worried that Herdman is absolutely clueless and in way over his head. Even worse than Dale Mitchell was.  If this is the case, we need to know asap deal with it asap.  This is why the lack of serious friendlies is problematic for me.  

As for the rumours against OZ, I've heard a few stories before and after his firing, tough tell what's true and not true given that in retrospect OZ' firing has to be justified by the CSA.  Having never run a national program, one can speculate that OZ had shortcomings in the non-football aspect of things. Whether these were in and of themselves sufficient to fire him OR whether they were used as an excuse to fire him in favour of Herdman when Herdman threatened to leave - that is the question we will never get an answer for.

Other rumours going back years suggest Herdman was not happy that Floro was making so much more money than he was. Let's not forget Herdman had a contract with the CWNT through next World Cup, what was he doing entertaining offers and threatening to leave last year?  When the dust settled, he got a massive raise supposedly a 7 figure deal... 

Let's be serious.  We have not heard the full story because it is dirty. No direct allegations have been made against OZ because A they're not true or B the CSA does not have clean hands themselves.  

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1 hour ago, Grizzly said:

Yes and you have stated precisely the problem. Only 4 games, 3 of which were against minnows and the other against a still not very good team which was missing some of it better players.

I don't see any evidence on the pitch that he is team building. I do not put a lot of stock in either Herdman's claims nor players praise of a new coach who control whether they get selected and play, the former is self promotion, the later what you say when you want playing time. What I think would contribute greatly to team building is playing games and having training camps.

 

To your first point, I agree the lack of games is frustrating. I am frustrated also, so I get you.

But is this precisely the problem?

So far the problem, according to some of you, is that we A) aren't winning by enough goals B ) aren't creating enough chances/playing good enough C) aren't playing guys in the right position D) aren't playing enough games. Etc.

These are the complaints I am sure to find if I go back through this thread, which I have no desire to.

To your second point, the evidence you are looking for takes time to manifest. That doesn't mean work isn't being done behind the scenes to eventually produce the evidence you and all of us are hoping to see.

I think it is reasonable to be skeptical of his methods and skeptical of players when they speak highly of those methods, until you see evidence in the form of results on the field. That is perfectly fine.

However, if results are what truly guides your opinion, and not some pre-built negative bias based on his personality or whatever, you'd look at the results and your attitude would be "meh, the results are okay so far, but let's see how GC goes".

Edited by Obinna

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11 hours ago, Bison44 said:

I wasnt expecting alot I'm a canadian fan, but thats the whole point Obinna.  Anyone who believed all the baloney and hyberbole coming from Herdman would have to be surprised that we played less games, less camps, and he hasnt seemingly taken advantage of all the positive things going on around him.  Hart, Floro etc etc these guys didnt have the WC coming, Davies getting world wide exposure, the CPL building up grass roots interest across the country.  I'm having a hard time seeing positive signs that I can attribute to Herdman. 

The team has taken care of business against minnows, hasnt looked particularly sharp, and he could have gotten more camps/games to do more team building but we havnt.  Whose fault is that?  Of course the real games will be the real test but this doesnt seem like the exciting ambititous first year of the transformational young coach that HAD to be hired with no job search because he might get away from us.  But you are right, its in the perspective, he came in with alot of shiny buzz words and it seems like a lot of the same shit.  I guess we\ll see how camp poutine goes with our tune up friendly.

I would say it is the CSA's fault for not playing enough games. I don't get why all of a sudden this is Herdman's fault?

We have always had issues with not playing enough, and time and again we'd blame the CSA. Now we are blaming Herdman for that? That seems misdirected.

 

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14 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I would say it is the CSA's fault for not playing enough games. I don't get why all of a sudden this is Herdman's fault?

We have always had issues with not playing enough, and time and again we'd blame the CSA. Now we are blaming Herdman for that? That seems misdirected.

 

Bc he is not just a coach.  Herdman is the Director for literally everything on the men's side. He has a massive budget to work with. Herdman is the CSA.

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3 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Bc he is not just a coach.  Herdman is the Director for literally everything on the men's side. He has a massive budget to work with. Herdman is the CSA.

 

Screenshot_20181207-111130_Samsung Internet.jpg

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1 hour ago, Obinna said:

 

To your second point, the evidence you are looking for takes time to manifest. That doesn't mean work isn't being done behind the scenes to eventually produce the evidence you and all of us are hoping to see.

This. I think if systems building and structural re-organization are part of his mandate, then it would be pretty reasonable to assume that in between MNT camps he’s not just sitting around playing Fortnite and counting dollars. 

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1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I would say it is the CSA's fault for not playing enough games. I don't get why all of a sudden this is Herdman's fault?

We have always had issues with not playing enough, and time and again we'd blame the CSA. Now we are blaming Herdman for that? That seems misdirected.

 

The lack of friendlies is mostly on the CSA but JH was quote saying something like "We won't be playing games apart from the NLQ and that's it". He's the MNT head coach and he just acts like this is normal. Herdman is in a better position than you and me to put pressure on the CSA to find a way to play maybe one or two friendlies, but he isn't doing it. For this, I think he's partly to blame. I would expect him to use the media to make it known that he isn't satisfied with just playing Dominica and co, that he needs better games to be able to evaluate his players.

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19 minutes ago, soccer.shocker said:

This. I think if systems building and structural re-organization are part of his mandate, then it would be pretty reasonable to assume that in between MNT camps he’s not just sitting around playing Fortnite and counting dollars. 

Yes, don't forget the emails too. 

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