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C2SKI

2016-17 CCL

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3 team groups: what nonsense.

Also having to wait one whole year after winning the Voyaguers Cupbefore playing a single CL matchmeans it would take three seasons from the entire start to finish. So much for continuity and trying to keep the same group of players throughout the entire campaign. You could very well have a set of players for the Cdn Championship, another set of players for the group stage and yet another set of players for the quarters and up. Great job CSA! (Sarcastic-shakes head)

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8 hours ago, C2SKI said:

'Caps are drawn into a group with Sporting Kansas City and Central FC from Trinidad and Tobago.

That is technically a weaker group than last time, when we were in Pot C.

We need to see what it would take for Concacaf to do the pots not based on country of origin but on the club's actual coefficient, then we might be able to work ourselves up and avoid an MLS or MX team in a group stage.

As Canadian clubs have a high possibility of winning the V-Cup (that is a Caps fans talking, so take it for what it's worth) and getting into Concachampions, we should have a good chance of getting a club coefficient up if they do things that way, which I'd prefer. 

Right now it just looks like some MX and US MLS teams are being helped by an arbitrary system not related to their actual results.

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10 hours ago, Moldy9 said:

3 team groups: what nonsense.

Also having to wait one whole year after winning the Voyaguers Cupbefore playing a single CL matchmeans it would take three seasons from the entire start to finish. So much for continuity and trying to keep the same group of players throughout the entire campaign. You could very well have a set of players for the Cdn Championship, another set of players for the group stage and yet another set of players for the quarters and up. Great job CSA! (Sarcastic-shakes head)

3 team groups make a lot of sense.  It's a poorer region, so you keep travel costs down while still ensuring a lot of teams get to play.

As for the "3 seasons start to finish", well virtually every league has "2 seasons start to finish". It's 3 seasons because of the giant split in CL between the group and quarterfinals.  That's not the CSA's fault.  If you think the CSA should be holding the Voyagers Cup earlier in the year, that's fine but just realize that when they did that the first time around they were constantly going head to head with the Stanley Cup playoffs and absolutely killing their attendance and viewership.  I'm not saying it's perfect, but I much prefer this slightly later start to the Voyagers Cup and the "3 seasons start to finish" scenario than as to what they had before.

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Watchmen, in most leagues it is one and a half seasons, start to finish, not more. If I am not mistaken the longest process from playing to get into a Confederation champions league to playing the World Club Cup (the culmination) is in Concacaf. 

So we could definitely improve on that, just not sure how now, air conditioning not working too well where I am right now...

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On May 31, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Watchmen said:

3 team groups make a lot of sense.  It's a poorer region, so you keep travel costs down while still ensuring a lot of teams get to play.

As for the "3 seasons start to finish", well virtually every league has "2 seasons start to finish". It's 3 seasons because of the giant split in CL between the group and quarterfinals.  That's not the CSA's fault.  If you think the CSA should be holding the Voyagers Cup earlier in the year, that's fine but just realize that when they did that the first time around they were constantly going head to head with the Stanley Cup playoffs and absolutely killing their attendance and viewership.  I'm not saying it's perfect, but I much prefer this slightly later start to the Voyagers Cup and the "3 seasons start to finish" scenario than as to what they had before.

The mls season also runs up against the stanley cup playoffs.  They dont interrupt or reschedule it just because of the stanley cup playoffs or the NBA playoffs.   The world cant stop just because of the stanley cup playoffs or the masters or Kentucky derby.  Besides there were no canadian teams in the nhl play offs this year.  

Very stupid decision on the CSA's part. The V-Cup use to fit very nicely in the schedule and it was an ideal and unique situation brought about only by the fact that we have a national chapmpionship with only a few teams.  You cant do that elsewhere.  But it was an advantage because you could send a team comprised of players and talent that just won the championship.  As opposed to sending a squad that may have turned over by as much or more than 50% from the one won the title the year before. And in two year from now, the squad may be 100% differnt.

Edited by Free kick

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40 minutes ago, Free kick said:

The mls season also runs up against the stanley cup playoffs.  They dont interrupt or reschedule it just because of the stanley cup playoffs or the NBA playoffs.   The world cant stop just because of the stanley cup playoffs or the masters or Kentucky derby.  Besides there were no canadian teams in the nhl play offs this year.  

Very stupid decision on the CSA's part. The V-Cup use to fit very nicely in the schedule and it was an ideal and unique situation brought about only by the fact that we have a national chapmpionship with only a few teams.  You cant do that elsewhere.  But it was an advantage because you could send a team comprised of players and talent that just won the championship.  As opposed to sending a squad that may have turned over by as much or more than 50% from the one won the title the year before. And in two year from now, the squad may be 100% differnt.

No, it's not stupid, because 1) They have the V's Cup final on national TV that the person with basic cable can watch. 2) Those teams that had to play games have to keep rotating the squad and often sent weak teams to play in the CCL because they aren't prepared to  add 3 games, the exception being Montreal twice and Toronto once because in 1 year they were the worst team in the league and in the other, they were in the USSF D2. So they had time. 3) MLS teams get allocation for participating in the CCL. Teams can sign better players if they're participating in the CCL because of that if they know 12 months in advance that they're in instead of panic buying like the Impact did in bringing in Adrian Lopez with money they only had because they won the V's Cup. 4) It opens the door to bring more teams to participate in the competition. 

Fact is you want to have the most eyeballs watching and sure no NHL team made the playoffs but I remember watching a V's Cup semifinal before a Game 7 in the NHL Playoffs, and the crowds were small. Clubs wanted it, the federation wanted it, their brodcast partners want it. Tell me who is losing from that? Sure a couple of players who left the club, but it happens. If you're telling me that oh those players who won the trophy didn't stay. It happens everywhere in every sport. The fact that the CCL is in a calendar different than ours creates a problem no matter what. 

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On July 29, 2016 at 10:35 PM, Blackdude said:

No, it's not stupid, because 1) They have the V's Cup final on national TV that the person with basic cable can watch. 2) Those teams that had to play games have to keep rotating the squad and often sent weak teams to play in the CCL because they aren't prepared to  add 3 games, the exception being Montreal twice and Toronto once because in 1 year they were the worst team in the league and in the other, they were in the USSF D2. So they had time. 3) MLS teams get allocation for participating in the CCL. Teams can sign better players if they're participating in the CCL because of that if they know 12 months in advance that they're in instead of panic buying like the Impact did in bringing in Adrian Lopez with money they only had because they won the V's Cup. 4) It opens the door to bring more teams to participate in the competition. 

Fact is you want to have the most eyeballs watching and sure no NHL team made the playoffs but I remember watching a V's Cup semifinal before a Game 7 in the NHL Playoffs, and the crowds were small. Clubs wanted it, the federation wanted it, their brodcast partners want it. Tell me who is losing from that? Sure a couple of players who left the club, but it happens. If you're telling me that oh those players who won the trophy didn't stay. It happens everywhere in every sport. The fact that the CCL is in a calendar different than ours creates a problem no matter what. 

Regarding point number 1:  i dont see the difference in national tv exposure between before and after.  I cut back several years ago on my cable. Maybe it depends on where in the country you live, but speaking from my experience, i am seeing less of the final now. This year,  I listened to it live on web radio but to view it, i had to watch the replay of the match via streaming. There are only two networks that ever held the rights (Sports net and TSN) and my basic cable package doesnt include TSN.  Anyways, they will sign the deal with who ever pays more, they could sign up on a third tier chanell or a PPV and the decision will have have nothing to with wheter you play it all in one calendar year or like you have it now. 

Regarding point number 2:. Are you sure that teams are playing better squads now compared to when the V-cup and CCL were played in the same year?  I havent really researched it, but from what i am recalling, if anything, it seems to be the opposite.  Look at the squad that Vancouver used in their game in Ottawa this year. Or last year versus edmonton.  When TFC were playing Montreal in the early years that they were in MLS, i seem to recall them using first team squads.  It continued to when all three were in MLS.  This year, there were many first team players from TFC missing from the final. Granted international commitments and injuries were a factor. But if anything, thats another argument for keeping this previous system whereby the matches were played (and the competition wrapped up) early in the MLS season. You used to see first team talent then because there were fewer injuries and intl commitments like the Gold Cup. We saw a Rahim Edwards this year get called on to play in the V-Cup final,  we never saw anything like that before. 

regarding point number 3:. I dont know of one example of an MLS team that went out and signed a player specically in order to improve their chances in the V-cup and CCL. It looks to me that when clubs add players, its to improve their squad in all competions not specically V cup play.  If anything, i would say clubs are more pre occupied in improving their squad for primarily for the league.  They know from attandance what more important. 

Regarding point 4:  when there are more teams in the competition, then you can change.  We dont know when or if there will be any teams to add. Or if you can add teams. Or if other teams even wnt to join. Or if mls teams want to play other teams that dont have adequate infrastructures. 

Regarding your last paragraph:  the only year when attandance became an issue due to competition from the NHL, was the year when the Canucks were making a long run in the play offs.   So the problems occur when nhl teams in Vancouver Montreal or Toronto reach the stanleycup finals or maybe semi finals.  How often is that going to happen?  I competely get and agree with you that you have to consider competion from other events but its a balancing act when its comes to that versus compromising your own event.  Sure, everyone wanted it (like you said) but it doesnt make it a more legitamate competition.  The reason that the rest of world cant play it all in one year because they cant. But because we have so few teams competing, we were in a unique and advantageous situation that we now threw out the window. 

 

Edit: i forgot to mention the year that the habs reached the semis.  that was in the month of May. 

Edited by Free kick

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50 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Regarding point number 1:  i dont see the difference in national tv exposure between before and after.  I cut back several years ago on my cable. Maybe it depends on where in the country you live, but speaking from my experience, i am seeing less of the final now. This year,  I listened to it live on web radio but to view it, i had to watch the replay of the match via streaming. There are only two networks that ever held the rights (Sports net and TSN) and my basic cable package doesnt include TSN.  Anyways, they will sign the deal with who ever pays more, they could sign up on a third tier chanell or a PPV and the decision will have have nothing to with wheter you play it all in one calendar year or like you have it now. 

Regarding point number 2:. Are you sure that teams are playing better squads now compared to when the V-cup and CCL were played in the same year?  I havent really researched it, but from what i am recalling, if anything, it seems to be the opposite.  Look at the squad that Vancouver used in their game in Ottawa this year. Or last year versus edmonton.  When TFC were playing Montreal in the early years that they were in MLS, i seem to recall them using first team squads.  It continued to when all three were in MLS.  This year, there were many first team players from TFC missing from the final. Granted international commitments and injuries were a factor. But if anything thats abnother argument for keeping this previous system whereby the matches wre played early in the MLS season. You got first team talent then because there were fewer injuries and intl commitments like the Gold Cup. We saw a Rahim Edwards this year get called on to play in the V-Cup final,  we never saw anything like that before. 

regarding point number 3:. I dont know of one example of an MLS team that went out and signed a player specically in order to improve their chances in the V-cup and CCL. It looks to me that when clubs add players, its to improve their squad in all competions not specically V cup play.  If anything, i would say clubs are more pre occupied in improving their squad for primarily for the league.  They know from attandance what more important. 

Regarding point 4:  when there are more teams in the competition, then you can change.  We dont know when or if there will be any teams to add. Or if you can add teams. Or if other teams even wnt to join. Or if mls teams want to play other teams that dont have adequate infrastructures. 

Regarding your last paragraph:  the only year when attandance became an issue due to competition from the NHL, was the year when the Canucks were making a long run in the play offs.   So the problems occur when nhl teams in Vancouver Montreal or Toronto reach the stanleycup finals or maybe semi finals.  How often is that going to happen?  I competely get and agree with you that you have to consider competion from other events but its a balancing act when its comes to that versus compromising your own event. 

 

Edit: i forgot to mention the year that the habs reached the semis.  that was in the month of May. 

What I meant by basic cable is the person that only has default TSN and Sportsnet will get the match. You're saying you see less of the final than before, but that is because you cut your cable, not because of another reason. 

About the lineups TFC played against Montreal and Vancouver, it was mostly that TFC was so bad at the beginning that they needed to put their first team to beat USSF D2 teams. Clubs wanted to go to the CCL just because it was that tournament that was new also. Perhaps, they've seen what it is and how clubs don't make money off it and chose to make it less of a competition, but whether putting it in May or July doesn't change anything about it. The thing you have to understand is that they've put a guy like Edwards because  TFC had a lot of injuries  and MLS, CSA and clubs agreed.

MLS teams do sign a lot of players with allocation. You can't really see that at first sign, because there are upgrades or players who the club would have had trouble signing some players because of the CCL. I don't think that Montreal would have been able to sign Ciman, Soumare, Donadel, Reo-Coker in 2016 if it wasn't for the CCL. Clubs won't say they signed the player with CCL allocation money, but they do. That's one thing that you won't see 

The thing is that you want to be ready once the competition have new entries and they need to be ready to add nw teams and the competition right now benefits clubs. I'm looking at this, but crowds were down in 2014. I presented the V's Cup in front of 13,423 person in Montreal 2 years ago, the Impact got 12,000 or so the next year and with the new change they got 18,000 people. If you're telling me that noone cares that it's in the summer. I'm looking at every year and all teams except for Vancouver in the final, and even if you take average attendance, the Whitecaps got more butts in the seats than last year because they only had 300 less people this year in the final and almost 2000 more this year in the semi-final. So, clubs are happy. And also that the final was in August, 3 months after the semi-finals so it helped a lot in selling tickets. And do you know what year has the best average attendance in the V's Cup history? It's this year's with over 14,295 average attendance beating  the record of 13,744 that happened in 2011. 

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I like how Robbo goes with the hot hand in net. Rewards for Richey setting a new club record in saves and Levis has been red hot lately.

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That was a very dull game, but the win is all that matters. Thought Davies and Greig were lively when they were on the pitch. Thought Smith and Aird were both horrendous. Everyone else was somewhere in between. Didn't notice Edgar too much, which is good for a CB.

Edited by shermanator

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2-0 Whitecaps in the 14th minute. Awful defending and goalkeeping on the first goal by Techera, basically a free header when Kempin missed the punch. Second goal was a result of a lovely ball by Teibert to Hurtado, that Kempin misplayed as well.

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You know things are going bad when a guy 5'2" HEADS the ball into the net. Nice to see Brett Levis,Fraser Aird, and Russell Teibert all start. Levis also just got a MLS contract today. Congrats!

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Nico to Davies to Hurtado and it's 1-0 after the rain / lightning delay.

Richey in net. Interesting. Marcel de Jong, Fraser Aird & Alphonso Davies are the Canucks starting. 4 ints + 4 tackles for Marcel in the first 35 before the delay.

Edited by TRM

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