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Now we're comparing a 22 yr old basketball player to a 22 year old soccer player?

Two totally different things.

Ps. Theres no 3rd round nba draft

Edited by king1010

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At 22 what you see isn't what you get... come on now, just look at ANY player.  Look at Messi and Ronaldo for instance... Ronaldo was 22 in 2007.. he's developed quite a bit since then.  Messi was 22 in 2009 and even though he was arguably the best player in the world at that time he still had room to grow and took his career to another level.  

 

I don't think there can be any argument that moving to Deportivo is a great move for Fisk.  I can't see there being a huge drop off from the 3rd to 4th division in Spain but his experience in being on a big club like Deportivo will be big moving forward, even to have his name attached to the club.  At 22 he will be exposed to a new experience that has never happened in his career at a level higher than any he has played at in his career, hopefully he learns and grows.  

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Everyone is too focused on the number in front of the division. It's still a great opportunity for Fisk to continue to develop and potentially play at a higher level. Don't forget, for a lot of players, once they get cut in NA there is no second chance. Let's just be glad Fisk isn't working at Best Buy for a living right now.

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Haha sorry about the 3rd round thing.  Let's say undrafted then.

 

Now we're comparing a 22 yr old basketball player to a 22 year old soccer player?

 

Of course it's different.  I should have said "or any sport whatsoever".  

 

But the main difference is that soccer has like hundreds on hundreds of pro teams worldwide where you can make a career.  The biggest difference where we can still talk about Ben Fisk's being a viable part of the CMNT is more about where the CMNT is at than about where Fisk is at.  Can he be viable to us?  Probably.   

 

We don't have a huge amount of Canadian players, but the pool is slowly starting to grow where we don't have to have a team of unattached FC.  Maybe one day, we won't have to have a team of 2nd and 3rd division players either.  

And vince carter would beg to differ that a 22 yr old without 2 to 3 years of nba experience cant lead an nba team in scoring.

 

He was a high school All-American.  I made it pretty clear I was talking about 22 year olds that previously weren't really talked about, or weren't already stars of their team.  You're talking about a guy that was a lottery pick and was compared to Jordan when he was at UNC.  Totally different from what I meant.  Obviously.

 

Again, how does this relate to Fisk in particular?  Not sure, again I haven't seen FISK play that much.  I'm just making a general point that if you are going to be a top tier superstar with potential to play amazing in the top tiers, you usually know about the guy by 18-20 years old.  Once you are 22, it's a lot less likely.  Impossible, no, I can think of plenty of NBA examples too!  (Vince Carter not being one, more like Arvydas Sabonis as an example, although even in that case he was extremely highly touted in Europe before doing well in the NBA. 

 

22 you usually are what you are as a player with more slight development improvement to come.  Doesn't matter the sport.  Any sport.  Not just NBA.  Is it possible for players to make huge developments at that age?  Yes, just again, less likely.

 

I mean, even keepers right?  On this board, because we don't have any 20 year old keepers that have already made their name, we act like 25 is usually the right age for a keeper to be starting.  Look at where Thibault Courtois was at 20 if you want a comparison.  I can find lots of examples like that too.  

 

The reason soccer is so different again, is because generally speaking with that many teams around the world, you can catch on at a top division somewhere and look like you are making a decent career.  But there's always a fundamental difference between making a career at say, RoPS or making a career at Atletico Madrid.  

 

If someone Ben Fisk moves from Deportivo and ends up scoring decent goals at say, 2nd tier Sweden, and then gets promoted and get like 2 goals in 1st tier Sweden, people here will have a tendency to point to that and say "see, he developed", when really his skills at age 25 where about parallel to where he was at age 22.   Perhaps the league, team, coach were better suited would however be a more apt description.

 

If someone like Ben Fisk moves from Deportivo B and catches on on Deportivo A, and then catches on and gets a career where he plays games at like, Tottenham, Augsburg, Deportivo, top teams in the world, then I will say that yes, there was definitely development.  Otherwise, it's tough to say.  

 

That's why soccer is different.  So many opportunities.  But again, so much politics too.

Edited by madmonte

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Ricky Lambert would be a similar example in that he plays up front too and was a late bloomer. There is another English example whose name escapes me. He was a big lump too I think. He played in Singapore and then worked his way back into England and played in the premier league too I think. Can't think of his name though.

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Ricky Lambert would be a similar example in that he plays up front too and was a late bloomer. There is another English example whose name escapes me. He was a big lump too I think. He played in Singapore and then worked his way back into England and played in the premier league too I think. Can't think of his name though.

Grant Holt

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Ricky Lambert would be a similar example in that he plays up front too and was a late bloomer. There is another English example whose name escapes me. He was a big lump too I think. He played in Singapore and then worked his way back into England and played in the premier league too I think. Can't think of his name though.

 

Grant Holt

 

edit: yomurphy1 beat me to it!  But what a great example of a late bloomer.  

 

Late bloomers do tend to have a natural athletic ability though which I'm not sure Fisk has... i.e. Holt, Lambert and McAuley are all monsters and for that reason continued to get chances.  

 

Other great examples of late bloomers include our big men Occean and Friend.  I think that's what makes the Cyle Larin hype the most exciting, that a kid who we all know has huge potential has shown it this early.  

Edited by Keegan

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Interesting perspective Keegan, because I always though Fisk had pretty good pace. Though admittedly I never saw him during the PanAM's. Going off memory from 2013

 

Does his pace separate him from others though?  He might be fast but is he Tosaint Ricketts fast?  I think Ricketts is another example of a guy who bloomed late because he was/is an athlete who you can put on any pitch in the world and he can outpace guys.. just like Holt, Friend etc. can out muscle guys.  

 

I can't see Fisk standing out as a fast player in Europe, he's probably above average at best but his pace isn't enough of an attribute to keep the chances/contracts coming if he doesn't produce.  He's a good athlete no doubt, but does he have that "freakishness" to him?  I don't see it.  

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Well, in my opinion Fisk is a much more talented footballer than Ricketts. If Ricketts is a 9.5/10 for pace and 5/10 for skill, than Fisk is a 8/10 and 7.5/10. Again, just an opinion and i'm not advocating bringing him in over Ricketts right now, I just see more potential for Fisk and I wouldn't be surprised if his career turns out better.

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I don't think too many of us were expecting Fisk to break into the Deportivo first team anyways. Does he have the talent to grab the opportunity? Possibly. He is quick and dribbles well, but needs to put the ball in the net more - kind of like Petrasso. I think Obinna made a good prediction of him making it to Segunda. Despite a slow start last season he still kept his spot in the lineup and finished with 5 goals. If he upped his game between now and his physical prime (25-30 for males) he could definitely go up a level. That said the drop in play between Segunda B (3rd tier with 4 regions) and Tercera (4th tier with 10 regions) is huge and he better dominate and produce if he wants a chance with Depor A.

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Again, how does this relate to Fisk in particular?  Not sure, again I haven't seen FISK play that much.  I'm just making a general point that if you are going to be a top tier superstar with potential to play amazing in the top tiers, you usually know about the guy by 18-20 years old.  Once you are 22, it's a lot less likely.  Impossible, no, I can think of plenty of NBA examples too!  (Vince Carter not being one, more like Arvydas Sabonis as an example, although even in that case he was extremely highly touted in Europe before doing well in the NBA. 

 

22 you usually are what you are as a player with more slight development improvement to come.  Doesn't matter the sport.  Any sport.  Not just NBA.  Is it possible for players to make huge developments at that age?  Yes, just again, less likely.

 

I mean, even keepers right?  On this board, because we don't have any 20 year old keepers that have already made their name, we act like 25 is usually the right age for a keeper to be starting.  Look at where Thibault Courtois was at 20 if you want a comparison.  I can find lots of examples like that too.  

 

The reason soccer is so different again, is because generally speaking with that many teams around the world, you can catch on at a top division somewhere and look like you are making a decent career.  But there's always a fundamental difference between making a career at say, RoPS or making a career at Atletico Madrid.  

 

 

 

I think trying to equate soccer to any of the other major North American sports* is a fool's errand.  The thing with North American sports is that it is dominated by genetic freaks (and I mean that in the nicest way possible), whereas in soccer you don't have to be over 5'11" and at least 180 pounds at 18 years old to get a chance.  I have no proof to back this up, but I think it's much easier for an 18-22 year-old to break into the NFL, NBA and even the NHL because athleticism is paramount whereas I think soccer is different because there is a much more cerebral element to it.  This focus on athleticism means that 20 year olds can be impact players and the decline comes a lot quicker than in the other sports.  So, I think the assumption that soccer = other North American sports that most of your post is based on is highly debatable.

 

Now to the point that most top-tier talents are identified at ages 18-20 is also pretty debatable.  Just look at the number of USA MNT regulars that came through the NCAA system.  If these players were identified as talents in their teenage years, they mostly would've gone pro rather than go the NCAA route.  Omar Gonzalez (29 caps), Tim Ream (15 caps), Brad Evans (23 caps), Graham Zusi (32 caps), Alejandro Bedoya (42 caps), Chris Wondolowski (31 caps), Gyasi Zardes (13 caps), Matt Besler (25 caps), Geoff Cameron (31 caps), Brad Davis (17 caps) all spent more than one year in the NCAA and a lot of them spent all four before going pro.  This means that most of them weren't in a pro environment until 20-22 years old and yet these guys are all contributors to one of the best national programs in our region.

 

With regards to Fisk, I think this is all we're looking for.  No one expects to sign for Atletico Madrid, but if he can continue to play at a decent level, he could become a player that will help us down the road and that's all that anyone here is looking for.  Sure, he may be plateauing right now with regards to his physical abilities (debatable), but if he gets playing time in a decent environment, I think that he can learn to play smarter.  

 

* I should note that I am not considering MLB as a "sport" per se.  It's more of a pass time.

Edited by El Hombre

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the amount of pretentiousness in that post El Hombre is mind blowing. The NBA requires height as it's core element but outside of that, atlethicism is not incredibly important(not on the scale we're talking about here, every professional athlete that is highly successful is far above the average person). Steve Nash was never considered a phenomenal athlete but he won 2 MVPs because he was an exceptional student of the game with an insane work ethic. In the NHL size hasn't mattered since the 2005 lockout and even before that guys like St Louis succeeded and he succeeded later in life than what you generally see with Soccer. The primary reason that NHL teams are considered about how much a player weighs is due to the risk of injury in such a physical game if the player is too small. Also hockey players generally last longer than soccer players which somewhat disproves your point on that as well. I'm going to leave your completely unnecessary insult to baseball aside.

 

I don't think this forum or the CSA should give up on a player or disregard them as long as they are still player professional soccer. Chris Kunitz played 2 NHL games when he was 24 and his first full season when he was 25. He played for Canada on the Olympic team at 35. Never count somebody out, especially someone as young as Fisk

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At the same age Josh Simpson was playing third tier at Millwall, Pesch was third tier at Birmingham, DeRo was at Richmond Kickers, Attiba at Helsingborg, etc. the list goes on. I think this is a good move for Ben and wish him all the best. I think he has the potential to be a Simpson level player for Canada. I am sure when he decided to leave the Caps this was the kind of move he envisioned.

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the amount of pretentiousness in that post El Hombre is mind blowing.

 

:) Usually when I want to make my posts pretentious, I put more effort into it.  This one was actually about a topic that I've thought about quite a bit, so any pretension is most likely due to finally putting thoughts down in words. 

  

The NBA requires height as it's core element but outside of that, atlethicism is not incredibly important(not on the scale we're talking about here, every professional athlete that is highly successful is far above the average person). Steve Nash was never considered a phenomenal athlete but he won 2 MVPs because he was an exceptional student of the game with an insane work ethic.

 

The Nash example is a great example for what I was trying to say.  He didn't get significant minutes until 2000 when he was 26 years old.  Coming out of NCAA, he was a relatively unknown but then went on to win MVP because he was a student of the game.  I'm not saying that NBA players can't improve in this respect, but more that the mental side of the game can have a greater improvement in someone's overall game in soccer than in most other sports.  Pure athleticism can take you much further in the NBA/NHL/NFL than in soccer.

 

 

In the NHL size hasn't mattered since the 2005 lockout and even before that guys like St Louis succeeded and he succeeded later in life than what you generally see with Soccer. The primary reason that NHL teams are considered about how much a player weighs is due to the risk of injury in such a physical game if the player is too small. Also hockey players generally last longer than soccer players which somewhat disproves your point on that as well.

 

 

Watch the next NHL draft closely.  After pretty much every pick you'll hear someone say "He's still got room to fill out." or "He just needs to put on a little more weight."  To say that size isn't important post-lockout is ridiculous.  Using St. Louis as an example proves nothing because he is still the exception.  Exceptional talent will get you far regardless of size and stature (this goes for Nash as well), but for the other 95% of athletes that aren't "exceptionally talented" (when compared to other professionals) size and raw athleticism goes a long way to pave out a career for these guys.  I don't believe the same is true for soccer players.  "Athletes" generally get found out in soccer, whereas "soccer players" excel.

 

Also the notion that hockey players last longer than soccer players is interesting.  The average career length for an NHL player is supposedly 5.5 years.  Soccer is a little more difficult to find, but this article says that the average soccer career length is 8 years. 

 

 

I don't think this forum or the CSA should give up on a player or disregard them as long as they are still player professional soccer. Never count somebody out, especially someone as young as Fisk

 

 

On this, we agree.  All I was trying to say is that drawing correlations with other sports in order to rationalize discounting someone or assuming that they are done developing isn't productive.

 

 

I'm going to leave your completely unnecessary insult to baseball aside.

 

 

:)  Oh come on now.  That would be an interesting discussion.

 

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Players carrying more weight is important in hockey because of injury concerns and the number of games in a season. You don't have much to lose if you're 6' 165. You also have to take into account that upperbody strength is far more important in hockey than it is in soccer. The other important thing to note is that as long as a player doesn't get too fat, muscle and fat is no where near as much of a hinderance in hockey than it is in soccer.

 

I think comparing the average soccer players career to an NHL player's career is a bit flawed. As the NHL is the best league in the world compared to any random soccer player who may be playing in League One or Two in England, still a professional, could easily play for a while because there is plenty of room to shuffle around and drop leagues while still being a professional. I was also talking more about how old the good players last, how many 37 year olds in the prem are still playing regularly at a high level, it's a bit of a gray area due to how soccer works versus hockey but still.

 

I really don't know how many players in the NHL you could put down to still being in the league due to raw athleticism, it's just not that kind of sport. The last prominent example that I could think of would be maxim afinogenov who was pure speed.

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3 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Released from Deportivo today.

Thanks for letting us know, have not been checking. Seen anything about Piette?

I honestly think he at least needs to make a step up and find a spot on a team in 2nd division A, because so far, even at Deportivo, he has not made any money. And 2B in Spain pays lousy. If he stays here. 

Sam has a lot of videos where he can show his skills, with us and, for example, with Racing Ferrol in 2B (who did not promote up in the end). 

Ben, not sure what he could do. He has some experience, and for sure has learnt a lot. But the level was too low to really interest a quality pro club, don't think. 

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8 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Ben, not sure what he could do. He has some experience, and for sure has learnt a lot. But the level was too low to really interest a quality pro club, don't think. 

Finland it is. 

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It wasn't factual but more of a logical next step after the Spanish Tercera has proven to be above his skills at the time. Yes he can still live as a pro, but his ceiling is probably too low to stay in Spain. 

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On 21/6/2016 at 11:05 AM, shamrock said:

It wasn't factual but more of a logical next step after the Spanish Tercera has proven to be above his skills at the time. Yes he can still live as a pro, but his ceiling is probably too low to stay in Spain. 

Problem is, in Spanish 3rd division, fourth tier, there are only a few players who can make a living. Those on B teams, younger guys the main club is paying to develop, and those on historically strong teams that have stupidly slipped down. And then the oddities with money and no one knows how. It was different before the financial crisis, up to 2009, when you could make 25 thousand euros, but not any more.

Ben was at Coruxo before, I think if he wants to stay in Spain, he could try a 2B team, and make a middle class wage. I was checking his instagram etc for hints and I see he has been back in Van, has "interests" there, it may be just a break but I wonder if he wants to insist on Spain or even Europe, or not.

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