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Jonathan Osorio

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Just now, Keegan said:

It’s not a perfect argument, for instance if you’re giving DP money to a Belgian 2nd division striker *cough* Vancouver *cough*.  But over time and in Canada/USA it’s just inevitable .. it’s not like this is China or India where you develop little to no domestic talent and players don’t really want to live there.

Right, it's not a perfect argument because there will be Jarju-sized busts from time to time. Which is why I said "if you get enough players coming," because the wider net helps weed out the crap outliers.

I know we're agreeing on this, I just wanted to further expand on my point.

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11 minutes ago, RS said:

It's a silly argument, isn't it? Players will gravitate to higher pay and better living conditions.

If you get enough players coming "for the money" then the level of play within the league will rise accordingly.

Like the Chinese Super League!

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13 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Okay, well I guess since you said so... 

No, like it literally does.  Colombia has better domestic players but MLS brings in better internationals.  You yourself just said players will favour that... it’s the same reason the EPL is better than the Belgian league. 

Having "better internationals" doesn't mean you have the "better team". 

Many of those "Columbians domestics" would be worth "DP & Internationals" on an MLS squad. Might be a reason why Euro leagues scout heavily there.... no?

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which league gets him more exposure to Spain, France, Portugal etc. I would imagine playing in Copa Libertadores against the likes of Boca Juniors will give Osorio an amazing experience plus far more eyes on him than if he is playing against the New England Revolution in MLS or Saprissa in CCL.

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3 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

We can argue about level of play, but what we know for sure is that the style of play in Colombia is much more akin to what we will face against Honduras, Costa Rica etc. And this is the bottom line for me. It's more valuable for the CMNT to have Osorio playing against the competition in Colombia than in MLS or the 2nd Bundesliga or the English Championship.  

 

Most of the best Hondurans, Costa Ricans, Panamanians, etc already play in MLS (minus the elite players like Keylor Navas et al). If Osorio wanted to take a clear and obvious step up in terms of a Concacaf level of play, there's only one league in the world left for him to do that: Liga MX.

Playing in Colombia might approximate Concacaf competition, but I don't buy the argument that it's automatically better for preparing for Concacaf competition than MLS. Especially if regular CCL play is mixed in.

Whether or not the Colombian league is overall better than MLS is another question altogether. I think we can all agree that Copa Libertadores is the brass ring here, though.

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4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Like the Chinese Super League!

No, not like the Chinese Super League at all.

MLS' foreign recruitment is much different, and the breadth of foreign talent is far more pervasive than it is in China. Plus the domestic players are much, much better in MLS.

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6 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

We can argue about level of play, but what we know for sure is that the style of play in Colombia is much more akin to what we will face against Honduras, Costa Rica etc. And this is the bottom line for me. It's more valuable for the CMNT to have Osorio playing against the competition in Colombia than in MLS or the 2nd Bundesliga or the English Championship.  

 

Is it though?

You could make the argument that Osorio rounded out his game because he learned how to make deep midfield runs into space - a skill he developed in the up-and-down frantic environment of MLS. 

I don't know what a South American league would help him develop skill wise that he doesn't already have....just generalizing, but the pace is slow and technique and ball control are king in Latin America. I guess he could get better in these areas, but I am skeptical that it would make him a more rounded player.

Ironically, the deep runs and increased workrate, which he picked up in MLS, would perhaps allow him to give a SA team another dimension. A North American dimension, if you will.

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5 minutes ago, RS said:

No, not like the Chinese Super League at all.

MLS' foreign recruitment is much different, and the breadth of foreign talent is far more pervasive than it is in China. Plus the domestic players are much, much better in MLS.

I was being facetious.

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7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Having "better internationals" doesn't mean you have the "better team". 

Many of those "Columbians domestics" would be worth "DP & Internationals" on an MLS squad. Might be a reason why Euro leagues scout heavily there.... no?

No doubt, which is why I’m consistently saying that Colombia has better domestic players. 

MLS has better imports/internationals and Colombia has better domestic players. I don’t doubt there are players that could be in MLS and good players but I do doubt that there are 2/3 Giovinco/Piatti/Villa level players hiding on every squad.

 IMO and from what I’ve seen any difference is negligible.  As time goes by MLS will take the clear lead, that’s just reality but it doesn’t mean Colombia is getting worse.  I should have known better than to compare MLS to a South American League as it devolves into an endless debate.  FWIW I would say MLS would be the 3rd best league in South America.  

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14 minutes ago, Boominbooty said:

which league gets him more exposure to Spain, France, Portugal etc. I would imagine playing in Copa Libertadores against the likes of Boca Juniors will give Osorio an amazing experience plus far more eyes on him than if he is playing against the New England Revolution in MLS or Saprissa in CCL.

You just chose the largest possible South American team and smallest MLS team to make a point... come on. 

“I would imagine playing in CCL against the likes of Club America will give Osorio an amazing experience plus far more eyes on him than if he is playing against Leones  in Primera A or The Strongest in Copa Libertadores.”

Right?  

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4 minutes ago, Keegan said:

No doubt, which is why I’m consistently saying that Colombia has better domestic players. 

MLS has better imports/internationals and Colombia has better domestic players. I don’t doubt there are players that could be in MLS and good players but I do doubt that there are 2/3 Giovinco/Piatti/Villa level players hiding on every squad.

 IMO and from what I’ve seen any difference is negligible.  As time goes by MLS will take the clear lead, that’s just reality but it doesn’t mean Colombia is getting worse.  I should have known better than to compare MLS to a South American League as it devolves into an endless debate.  FWIW I would say MLS would be the 3rd best league in South America.  

No need to debate this... We can pick up where we left off once MLS wins CCL at the very least and outplay Mexican squads way more often. 

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20 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Having "better internationals" doesn't mean you have the "better team". 

Many of those "Columbians domestics" would be worth "DP & Internationals" on an MLS squad. Might be a reason why Euro leagues scout heavily there.... no?

Columbians? Are you sure you dated one? :)

anyways, I think with a little research we'd see that Colombians run the gamet in MLS from DP, to TAM, to GAM. 

To suggest many of the domestics in Columbia would be DPs sounds....disengenuous.

And besides, considering you brought up economics before, I should put out that is also an economic argument.

Edited by Obinna

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1 minute ago, Keegan said:

You just chose the largest possible South American team and smallest MLS team to make a point... come on. 

“I would imagine playing in CCL against the likes of Club America will give Osorio an amazing experience plus far more eyes on him than if he is playing against Leones  in Primera A or The Strongest in Copa Libertadores.”

Right?  

But he's already done that, right? He's done those things you mentioned. He hasn't played Bocas. We see where CCL has got him. A good contract with TFC. This is great. If he wants to go somewhere further I suggest he moves to the next opportunity especially when people are seeking him out.

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We've had dominant MLS players leading our CMNT for years, and where has that gotten us?

Why do we lose in WCQ? Many reasons, surely. But one key point we've all agreed on is the mental aspect, a lack of mental toughness in key moments. This is not just about the hostile atmospheres, although that is involved. It's more about not being used to playing in highly intense do or die games where everything, and I mean everything, is on the line. Just one local derby in Medellin will be like nothing Oso has ever experienced. A libertadores game? Forget about it. It just has no comparison to a game against Tigres at BMO or an MLS playoff game in any way shape or form.  We are talking different worlds.

These killer situations is what we need our players to live every season. Especially for a player like Oso, who we will literally be asking and expecting to unlock a defence in a do or die WCQ game is a few months, this move would be so perfect for us it's almost unbelievable.   

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46 minutes ago, Keegan said:

The money in MLS is what brings the higher level talents that don’t feature in Colombia = an equal or higher level.  This is quite recent though, within the last 10 years. There’s no doubt that the domestic player in Colombia is stronger.

You’re right though.  That may be one of the reasons in conjunction with lifestyle for sure though in some instances.  The fact that it’s an equal level and you can live a better lifestyle makes it a no brainer for players down there.

Its not like someone moves to MLS thinking it’s the highest level but you can definitely get exposure and move on, see Fredy Montero and Fabian Castillo.  My point is you would rarely, if ever, see a non Colombian move from MLS to Colombia in a bid to move up the ladder - not to say you couldn’t but it’s just not efficient.

This statement is very accurate.  Although the money brings in many top domestic players from South America, the overall level in Colombia is still remains higher than the MLS.  

Just look at how Mexican teams have dominated the Concacaf Champions League but historically have rarely made it to the Quarter Finals in the Copa Libertadores (Tigres made a run a few years back).  Colombian teams have won the 3 Copa Libertadores titles including a title 2 years ago.

I'm not saying that some of the top MLS teams couldn't complete in the Colombian league but overall the Colombian league is still stronger.

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1 minute ago, BrennanFan said:

We've had dominant MLS players leading our CMNT for years, and where has that gotten us?

Why do we lose in WCQ? Many reasons, surely. But one key point we've all agreed on is the mental aspect, a lack of mental toughness in key moments. This is not just about the hostile atmospheres, although that is involved. It's more about not being used to playing in highly intense do or die games where everything, and I mean everything, is on the line. Just one local derby in Medellin will be like nothing Oso has ever experienced. A libertadores game? Forget about it. It just has no comparison to a game against Tigres at BMO or an MLS playoff game in any way shape or form.  We are talking different worlds.

These killer situations is what we need our players to live every season. Especially for a player like Oso, who we will literally be asking and expecting to unlock a defence in a do or die WCQ game is a few months, this move would be so perfect for us it's almost unbelievable.   

What about a game against Tigres at El Volcan? Or against America at Azteca?

You are cherry picking.

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1 hour ago, BrennanFan said:

No. The level of play in Concacaf WCQ is higher than the level of Concacaf Champions league and is closer to the level of Libertadores. The hostile conditions in WCQ are also closer to South American club football, aside from big games in Mex.

The players you named are nowhere close to the level required on top Colombian teams or in the Libertadores, in fact there are only a handful of our players who could handle and benefit from that level, Jono included.

Yes, I'm aware of the various levels of play but I don't think you can just say "except for the games in Mexico" as though they don't count for anything. Those are the games I am primarily thinking about. Osorio started 6 games against Mexican teams in the CCL last year including 3 in Mexico and including one at Azteca. Those are the stiffest tests that we can face in WCQ and its reasonable to assume there's a good chance Osorio & the other Canucks still left at TFC next year will get more of those tests unless the team crashes out in the first round (and they have a better chance of doing that if they suddenly get rid of Osorio).

I'm also aware that the other players I mentioned are not at the same level as Osorio, but more importantly they also haven't had the same experiences in playing and being tested in CCL play - but that's why I mentioned it would be a much better move (in terms of developing our player pool) for them to gain the same experience that Osorio already has & will get again (I didn't say it was particularly realistic or that we should hold our breaths waiting for those players to be moved to Colombia). Notice that I didn't include anyone else from TFC, like a Jay Chapman or Liam Fraser, because they are also bound to get more CCL time and tests next winter/spring.

Edited by Gian-Luca

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1 minute ago, Obinna said:

What about a game against Tigres at El Volcan? Or against America at Azteca?

You are cherry picking.

Exactly.  People always want to throw out these mythical atmospheres as if they’re these life changing moments our players have never come close to and it’s going to take their game to new heights. 

If we want that then why not have Osorio join Larin and Atiba at Besiktas?  Colombia isn’t going to offer some experience that isn’t available away at Tigres or Azteca, sorry to burst that little fantasy.

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Im trying to figure out what this conversation is all about and its a little tough to follow. To me its simple, if your a TFC fan and you value him, you wouldnt want him to go. From a CMNT perspective, who cares, he's 26 and has maxed out, let him play where he likes. Copa Libs rocks and i think startingnext year it will be on DAZN. So you can still follow him

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1 minute ago, Obinna said:

What about a game against Tigres at El Volcan? Or against America at Azteca?

You are cherry picking.

Nope. Still there is no comparison.  

This is not exactly it, but the closest way to explain it is that there is no hate between Tigres and TFC. There is no history. The ultras of these teams are not killing each other in the streets pre games. This is literally what happens in south America. There is a history of hate between clubs and between national teams that is so fucked up its totally absurd to us, but this is why the games are so intense and when I say do or die, that's literally the case. When you have ultras breaking into to your dressing room post game, then shit gets real. When travelling support is banned nation wide because too many people are being murdered at the stadium, it creates an intensity that is indescribable in words.

The closest we get is a playoff game against the Impact. And that is just peanuts.

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4 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Nope. Still there is no comparison.  

This is not exactly it, but the closest way to explain it is that there is no hate between Tigres and TFC. There is no history. The ultras of these teams are not killing each other in the streets pre games. This is literally what happens in south America. There is a history of hate between clubs and between national teams that is so fucked up its totally absurd to us, but this is why the games are so intense and when I say do or die, that's literally the case. When you have ultras breaking into to your dressing room post game, then shit gets real. When travelling support is banned nation wide because too many people are being murdered at the stadium, it creates an intensity that is indescribable in words.

The closest we get is a playoff game against the Impact. And that is just peanuts.

Sorry but that’s child’s play.  In CONCACAF we literally go to war, not that pussy shit.  Clearly they don’t take their football seriously in South America.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Sorry but that’s child’s play.  In CONCACAF we literally go to war, not that pussy shit.  Clearly they don’t take their football seriously in South America.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War

 

 

I agree, Mexico and other Central American countries go to battle and have intense rivalries.  This pertains to all Latin American countries from Mexico south to Chile.  Overall the biggest in South American may be the most intense but Mexico and Central America can be right there as well.  The same cannot be said for the MLS.

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2 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Sorry but that’s child’s play.  In CONCACAF we literally go to war, not that pussy shit.  Clearly they don’t take their football seriously in South America.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War

 

 

This is why we cannot win in central America. The rest of concacaf is at that mental level, and we are outsiders looking in, in so many ways. We are foreigners in our own region.  We cannot match that intensity, that desire, that fear of losing, and the experience of playing in such situations.  

We will need more than Herdman's brain room to get to where we need to be. But we can get there. 

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