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Why a fully open ... Voyageurs Cup is needed to grow the game...

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Came across this on Reddit. The thread title indicated that the winner of the PLSQ would be able to complete in the Voyageurs Cup, maybe in 2017 or 2018. A comment from that thread says that the opening part of the clip states that the plan is to expand to 12 teams

Since I don't speak French, would anyone who does care to translate?

http://www.rds.ca/videos/soccer/soccer-expansion-a-venir-dans-la-premiere-ligue-de-soccer-du-quebec-3.1182822

Edited by shermanator

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6 hours ago, shermanator said:

Came across this on Reddit. The thread title indicated that the winner of the PLSQ would be able to complete in the Voyageurs Cup, maybe in 2017 or 2018. A comment from that thread says that the opening part of the clip states that the plan is to expand to 12 teams

Since I don't speak French, would anyone who does care to translate?

http://www.rds.ca/videos/soccer/soccer-expansion-a-venir-dans-la-premiere-ligue-de-soccer-du-quebec-3.1182822

THE EXPANSION OF THE VOYAGEURS CUP IS COMING!!!! The clip says that the PLSQ is very stable and that the 7 clubs from last year are returning and they are adding 5 new teams. The league Commisioner states that the CSA has approved a plan for the winner of the league to play in the Voyageurs Cup, the exact details and format still need to be determined but it will happen by the 2017 competition or at the latest the 2018 competition.  

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1 hour ago, Grizzly said:

THE EXPANSION OF THE VOYAGEURS CUP IS COMING!!!! The clip says that the PLSQ is very stable and that the 7 clubs from last year are returning and they are adding 5 new teams. The league Commisioner states that the CSA has approved a plan for the winner of the league to play in the Voyageurs Cup, the exact details and format still need to be determined but it will happen by the 2017 competition or at the latest the 2018 competition.  

The plan to expand to 12 teams has been there since day 1. The thing is they never really grew. I do think that V's cup inclusion could do wonders in getting a Québec City club started. It's not like the players aren't there. If there was 1 Québec City area club, I think that they would be contenders from year 1, that's how much talent there is in the region. The goal was to get to 12 and have pro/rel with LSÉQ.

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So are what we saying is that every time a province sets up a legit, equivalent HP adult league, under the auspices or recognized by the provincial SA, that league will be able to play down to determine a rep to play later V-Cup rounds?

Or use previous year's league results?

If this is the principle, I like it.

Though, pending the lack of such leagues and likely persistence of this situation, it would also be good for the CSA to make a provision. Ideally, that any proper team can apply to play for the provincial rep spot, based on a minimum basic criteria. So that every province in Canada could set up a playoff, and then send at least one amateur or very semi-pro club into the competition. This is so no team can be discriminated just because it is in a province where no equivalent league is going to be or is likely to be set up.

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On 4/26/2016 at 10:36 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

So are what we saying is that every time a province sets up a legit, equivalent HP adult league, under the auspices or recognized by the provincial SA, that league will be able to play down to determine a rep to play later V-Cup rounds?

Or use previous year's league results?

If this is the principle, I like it.

Though, pending the lack of such leagues and likely persistence of this situation, it would also be good for the CSA to make a provision. Ideally, that any proper team can apply to play for the provincial rep spot, based on a minimum basic criteria. So that every province in Canada could set up a playoff, and then send at least one amateur or very semi-pro club into the competition. This is so no team can be discriminated just because it is in a province where no equivalent league is going to be or is likely to be set up.

I really like the idea to get more provinces involved. 

Such a provision should be temporary though, or granted on a year to year basis by the CSA. We want regional D3's across the nation, and not a way for a areas to side step that. Also if the provision is not limited to areas without a D3 then I could see a place like Toronto entering a team like Toronto Internacional with a bunch of ex-pats. 

Initially the CSA should just bring in the D3 leagues and then look at how to get provincial teams in where there are no leagues coming soon. IIRC BC should have its league in a couple of years correct?

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27 minutes ago, Pqhbv said:

I really like the idea to get more provinces involved. 

Such a provision should be temporary though, or granted on a year to year basis by the CSA. We want regional D3's across the nation, and not a way for a areas to side step that. Also if the provision is not limited to areas without a D3 then I could see a place like Toronto entering a team like Toronto Internacional with a bunch of ex-pats. 

Initially the CSA should just bring in the D3 leagues and then look at how to get provincial teams in where there are no leagues coming soon. IIRC BC should have its league in a couple of years correct?

Is that true about BC then? I haven't said a word as I don't know but it would be great to get a cohesive semi-pro league together, though we have always been close, at least in tradition and clubs.

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This is what I was referring to. 

https://www.bcsoccer.net/files/AboutUs/StrategicPlanSummary/2016MarchBC%20Soccer%202016-2019%20Strategic%20Plan.pdf

On the last page under "Quantified Objectives" of the first row it says: "Introduce a professionally administered adult amateur soccer league by 2019 (Tier 3)"

So presumably it would not be semi-pro like PLSQ and more along the lines of L1O which is fine and probably would qualify for the V-cup once established. Although the vagueness of a firm date and the fact that in the past they mentioned 2016 as the date should be a little concerning as well.

 

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This is as good a place as any I could find to post this, and I thought it was premature to start a Voyageurs Cup 2019 thread. If we assume yesterday's tweet about the first 8 CPL teams is correct (BC, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Hamilton, York, Ottawa, Halifax) and we assume "Ottawa" is in fact "Ottawa Fury", then that means we know we have 11 professional teams for 2019. In 2018 we know we are getting 1 L1O and 1 PLSQ team in the Voyageurs Cup, which if that continues would put us up to 13 teams, which is pretty awkward, especially if you want to introduce the 11 top tier (by CSA definition) teams in the same round.

So my hope (and a bit of an expectation) is that we could see 3 more L1O+PLSQ teams to bring the total to 16 teams in the tournament in 2019. Any thoughts on why they will or won't do this? Or how they will do it? Perhaps PLSQ champs, L1O champs (they got rid of conferences this year, so you can't really do East and West champs), and then some sort of tournament among the top few teams in each league to determine the other 3 teams?

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I would think the CPL teams along with the L1O winner and PLSQ winner play in the "Qualifying Round". The 5 winners will join the 3 MLS teams in the quarter finals.

 

BUT if they want the CPL and MLS teams to be on the same playing field (which is probably what they want) it'll get much more complicated. We will have 11 CPL MLS teams, and then would need 10 more teams (maybe PDL gets involved) to play a qualifying round to have 5 winners join the 11 professional teams

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3 minutes ago, michaeltfc91 said:

I would think the CPL teams along with the L1O winner and PLSQ winner play in the "Qualifying Round". The 5 winners will join the 3 MLS teams in the quarter finals.

 

BUT if they want the CPL and MLS teams to be on the same playing field (which is probably what they want) it'll get much more complicated. We will have 11 CPL MLS teams, and then would need 10 more teams (maybe PDL gets involved) to play a qualifying round to have 5 winners join the 11 professional teams

Why would there have to be a qualifying round though? Instead of 10 teams battling for 5 spots, they could just give out the 5 spots. Maybe they do top 2 PLSQ, top 2 L1O, and the 3rd place from PLSQ and L1O playoff for the final spot or something like that?

I kind of hope PDL doesn't get involved (but might not quite be dead set against it) because I want the Voyageurs Cup to be the carrot that brings PDL teams to the Canadian pyramid to strengthen it.

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I'd like to see something like this. Round 2 could be regionalized and be drawn based on which teams are closest. Round three would allow for 4 teams with Byes to enter into the competition. After the first year of the competition I would say allow byes to previous Voyageurs Cup Champion, Previous CPL Champion, Previous CPL Runner Up, and Previous Year MLS highest point total

Round 1   Round 2   Round 3
L1O   Round1 Winner   Round2 Winner
PLSQ   CPL2   CPL1
         
    CPL3   Round2 Winner
    CPL4   MLS1
         
    CPL5   Round2 Winner
    CPL6   MLS2
         
    CPL7   Round2 Winner
    CPL8   MLS3

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13 minutes ago, Kent said:

Why would there have to be a qualifying round though? Instead of 10 teams battling for 5 spots, they could just give out the 5 spots. Maybe they do top 2 PLSQ, top 2 L1O, and the 3rd place from PLSQ and L1O playoff for the final spot or something like that?

I kind of hope PDL doesn't get involved (but might not quite be dead set against it) because I want the Voyageurs Cup to be the carrot that brings PDL teams to the Canadian pyramid to strengthen it.

A League 1 Ontario or PLSQ team entering at the same time of an MLS team doesn't seem right. Plus why not have 21 teams instead of 16 (if at all possible). But I see your point

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24 minutes ago, michaeltfc91 said:

A League 1 Ontario or PLSQ team entering at the same time of an MLS team doesn't seem right. Plus why not have 21 teams instead of 16 (if at all possible). But I see your point

I figure either way they would end up there with an MLS team. But yeah, we are all shooting in the dark. The positive to your idea like you said is that it gets more teams involved with a shot.

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I see the 2019 V-Cup looking like what @michaeltfc91 had mentioned.  Since it would be the first CanPL season, there would be no way to seed the teams.  Round 1 = 8 CPL, 1 L1O, 1 PLSQ [5 winners advance].  QF = 5 round 1 winners, 3 MLS.

My concern is if the MLS teams push back on being pushed back in the competition.  Instead of 4 games, it would be 6 (I believe the MLS teams resisted 6 a number of years ago).

Beyond, I'd see it tightening up.  I'm assuming the MLS teams will push back on the competition being "too long".

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1 hour ago, coppercanuck said:

I see the 2019 V-Cup looking like what @michaeltfc91 had mentioned.  Since it would be the first CanPL season, there would be no way to seed the teams.  Round 1 = 8 CPL, 1 L1O, 1 PLSQ [5 winners advance].  QF = 5 round 1 winners, 3 MLS.

My concern is if the MLS teams push back on being pushed back in the competition.  Instead of 4 games, it would be 6 (I believe the MLS teams resisted 6 a number of years ago).

Beyond, I'd see it tightening up.  I'm assuming the MLS teams will push back on the competition being "too long".

Eventually it will presumably switch to a single-game knockout format, which would solve most fatigue-related issues since it would be half as many games per round and you wouldn't have two-legged ties played on back-to-back midweeks.

I think your format suggestion would be a good stop gap solution, but long-term the competition should be properly aligned by tiering, i.e. CPL clubs should enter in the same round as CMLS. And the fix for that would be to just add more L1O and PLSQ clubs, which would be a good step toward this thread's original suggestion.

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10 hours ago, Zem said:

Eventually it will presumably switch to a single-game knockout format, which would solve most fatigue-related issues since it would be half as many games per round and you wouldn't have two-legged ties played on back-to-back midweeks.

I think your format suggestion would be a good stop gap solution, but long-term the competition should be properly aligned by tiering, i.e. CPL clubs should enter in the same round as CMLS. And the fix for that would be to just add more L1O and PLSQ clubs, which would be a good step toward this thread's original suggestion.

I agree with everything except the stop gap solution. I think MLS and CPL should start in the same round from the get go. But yeah, I was going to make the point that the format could go to single knockout. For MLS teams it will mitigate issues with having to play more rounds, and for CPL teams it will increase the likelihood of getting an upset against an MLS team. Win-win!

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On 5/3/2018 at 3:43 PM, deschamp86 said:

I'd like to see something like this. Round 2 could be regionalized and be drawn based on which teams are closest. Round three would allow for 4 teams with Byes to enter into the competition. After the first year of the competition I would say allow byes to previous Voyageurs Cup Champion, Previous CPL Champion, Previous CPL Runner Up, and Previous Year MLS highest point total

Round 1   Round 2   Round 3
L1O   Round1 Winner   Round2 Winner
PLSQ   CPL2   CPL1
         
    CPL3   Round2 Winner
    CPL4   MLS1
         
    CPL5   Round2 Winner
    CPL6   MLS2
         
    CPL7   Round2 Winner
    CPL8   MLS3

As some might have already pointed out, no way in hell MLS gets a by ahead of CPL teams

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Kent said:

For MLS teams it will mitigate issues with having to play more rounds,

Where does it stops? CONCACAF changed the Champions League format to accommodate MLS and now the Canadian Championship? If that league is as good as it says it is, they should just suck it up and play. I recall Liga MX playing in Copa Liberdatores and Champions league.

Look how many games they play in Europe via ll those different cups they compete for throughout the year. This going easy for MLS must end. TFC is a deep team, perhaps the rest of the league should focus on that instead of going after guys like Rooney. ugh

Edited by Ansem

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Posted (edited)

Thing is with CPL presumably expanding every year by various numbers it's going to make it tricky to have a set plan/format.

Edited by mpg_29

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36 minutes ago, Ansem said:

As some might have already pointed out, no way in hell MLS gets a by ahead of CPL teams

If you read the rest of what I wrote it breaks down which teams should get byes. I wouldn't know how to do it for the first year, unless you were to take early season standings into account for CPL

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2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Where does it stops? CONCACAF changed the Champions League format to accommodate MLS and now the Canadian Championship? If that league is as good as it says it is, they should just suck it up and play. I recall Liga MX playing in Copa Liberdatores and Champions league.

Look how many games they play in Europe via ll those different cups they compete for throughout the year. This going easy for MLS must end. TFC is a deep team, perhaps the rest of the league should focus on that instead of going after guys like Rooney. ugh

I was just pointing out that MLS teams don't really want to add to their schedule, and that it actually works better for CPL teams to use a format where MLS teams would still play at most 4 games (I guess it could be more than 4 games if we use replays like in the FA Cup).

My preference is for a 16 team tournament (at least) with the 8 CPL, 3 MLS, and 5 L1O+PLSQ teams all starting in that round. A random draw to determine who plays who. Whether it's 2 legs or single knockout I don't have strong feelings either way, they both have their positives. Positive for 2 legs is that small clubs would get a chance to host a big club in their home stadium, which could potentially be the biggest draw of the year for them, and also they would get to play in the stadium of a big club, which again could potentially have them playing in the biggest crowd they will all year. The positive to single knockout is that it makes upsets easier, and lets face it, for a CPL team to beat an MLS team it would be an upset. And it would be good optically for CPL if an MLS team got knocked out by a CPL team (and for a CPL team to eventually win the tournament).

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5 hours ago, Kent said:

I agree with everything except the stop gap solution. I think MLS and CPL should start in the same round from the get go. But yeah, I was going to make the point that the format could go to single knockout. For MLS teams it will mitigate issues with having to play more rounds, and for CPL teams it will increase the likelihood of getting an upset against an MLS team. Win-win!

 

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

As some might have already pointed out, no way in hell MLS gets a by ahead of CPL teams

I'd definitely prefer if it was properly oriented from the start; when I posted that I was thinking that coppercanuck's idea was probably spot on since if CPL and CMLS were starting in same round we would have heard about more League1 Ontario and PLSQ clubs being added to the VC by now. But I had a brain fart and didn't realise they wouldn't be able to announce that until the final number of CPL clubs for next year was confirmed.

So I guess it could still happen; hopefully it is does and CPL isn't forced to play second fiddle to CMLS despite both leagues being D1.

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3 hours ago, Zem said:

 

I'd definitely prefer if it was properly oriented from the start; when I posted that I was thinking that coppercanuck's idea was probably spot on since if CPL and CMLS were starting in same round we would have heard about more League1 Ontario and PLSQ clubs being added to the VC by now. But I had a brain fart and didn't realise they wouldn't be able to announce that until the final number of CPL clubs for next year was confirmed.

So I guess it could still happen; hopefully it is does and CPL isn't forced to play second fiddle to CMLS despite both leagues being D1.

Huh, I was going to respond by saying the expansion to include L1O and PLSQ came later in the year than this, but I am wrong about that. It was March 9th apparently. But yeah, they would probably want to confirm the CPL teams before they announce a format for next year.

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I think I always forget how many teams are at that L1O/PLSQ level.  This year it's 25 teams.  If it was "fully open", this year would see a good number of rounds to get down to the one spot to play Ottawa, with that winner getting into the "MLS round".

Let me ask this ... Should last year's standings matter for the L1O/PLSQ teams?

The 2018 VCup sees the previous season's league champs face-off.  This gave teams time to prepare, add players, sponsorship, etc for the VCup run.  Remember, initially, they were to face either Ottawa or Edmonton, so there was some travel costs to be considered.

I'm really excited to see what the 2019 VCup will bring.  I just hope the CSA is in control of it rather than the CMLS owners.  Open it up.  Even just a little each year.

2018 MLS = semifinals

2019 MLS = quarterfinals, CPL = round of 16

2020 MLS/CPL = round of 16

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