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Why a fully open ... Voyageurs Cup is needed to grow the game...

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Orlando City pulled one of the biggest upsets in the recent history of the Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup when it beat the defending champion Sporting Kansas City, 1-0, on the road thanks to a second-minute goal from Chinese forward Long Tan. The NASL league-leading Carolina RailHawks beat Chivas USA, 3-1, in overtime to gain revenge for their loss in the same stage last year. The other six quarterfinalists in the cup's centennial edition will all be from MLS.

And so in 2015 can we not have a fully open V - Cup in Canada ?

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Orlando City pulled one of the biggest upsets in the recent history of the Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup when it beat the defending champion Sporting Kansas City, 1-0, on the road thanks to a second-minute goal from Chinese forward Long Tan. The NASL league-leading Carolina RailHawks beat Chivas USA, 3-1, in overtime to gain revenge for their loss in the same stage last year. The other six quarterfinalists in the cup's centennial edition will all be from MLS.

And so in 2015 can we not have a fully open V - Cup in Canada ?

Because we do not have a large number of NASL and USLPro teams in Canada and even our amateur teams are far weaker than the American equivalents. The CSA should concentrate on organizing the leagues better and improving their quality instead of watering down the currently successful VCup format by introducing a lot of teams that don't merit playing in it.

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Isn't Orlando City a farm team of Sporting KC? I know they sign some sort of agreement.

Yes Orlando is the affiliate of KC and has some players on loan who were not allowed to play. KC was also missing 6 internationals. Good result for Orlando though I don't think it is that huge of an upset. USLPro is probably more of a D2B than a D3 in comparison with NASL in that the level of play is probably pretty close to NASL level. The main reason they are a D3 league is because they do not meet the USSF criteria for D2 not because of playing level. And Orlando is in first place by a fairly comfortable margin. Nor is it much of an upset for the best NASL team, Carolina, to beat the worst MLS team, Chivas. Upsets are part of Cup competition and the D1 teams in any competition usually don't play their best team and are often less motivated. The last of the amateur teams were eliminated in the 3rd round. The 4th round had 12 MLS teams, 2 NASL teams and 2 USLPro teams. The quarter finals will have 6 MLS teams and the first place teams of the NASL and USLPro. No huge surprises there.

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Because we do not have a large number of NASL and USLPro teams in Canada and even our amateur teams are far weaker than the American equivalents. The CSA should concentrate on organizing the leagues better and improving their quality instead of watering down the currently successful VCup format by introducing a lot of teams that don't merit playing in it.

The CSA has suspended one league this year in Quebec over the turbans ( which will change yes... but ) and the CSL is running in Ontario because of sport arbitration decision. So just what leagues is the CSA interested in organizing better and improving quality ?

Clubs and teams will improve with incentives the only currently viable one is to open up the V Cup to have lower level clubs take a run at the top teams and thus improve and invest.

We are not getting a National d2, regional d3 is still not solid, there is no change from ten years ago.

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The CSA has suspended one league this year in Quebec over the turbans ( which will change yes... but ) and the CSL is running in Ontario because of sport arbitration decision. So just what leagues is the CSA interested in organizing better and improving quality ?

Clubs and teams will improve with incentives the only currently viable one is to open up the V Cup to have lower level clubs take a run at the top teams and thus improve and invest.

We are not getting a National d2, regional d3 is still not solid, there is no change from ten years ago.

The CSA suspended a province, not a league.

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The US Open Cup semifinal from Frisco, TX tonight: https://twitter.com/EmptySeatsPics/status/499389585466851328

 

(If you didn't click the link) Annouced attendance: 4,326

 

  • Over 100 years of history.
  • 80 teams in the tournament, 32 once the 16 (U.S.) MLS clubs drop into the tournament in the 4th round
  • Open to senior clubs from across the country and competed for by all fully pro teams.

 

Folks: CAN WE PLEASE JUST ACCEPT HOW GOOD WE HAVE IT IN THE VOYAGEUR'S CUP RIGHT NOW.

 

Seriously, if you want to argue for expanding the Canadian Championship because you think YOU'D enjoy it more with more teams, that's fine.  But the notion that expanding the tournament will expand interest in it does not hold up to scrutiny.  And the idea that it needs more teams to gain legitimacy is insulting, nor backed up by the experience of the United States.

 

We've got a really good thing going right now, with all of our pro teams taking the tournament reasonably seriously, and crowds consistently turning up.  It's short, intense, and prone to some pretty random results that have resulted in some great drama, in both formats, since the Canadian Championship started in 2008.

 

If the Canadian clubs below the level of the USLPro and NASL are ACTUALLY PREPARED to compete in continental competition -- the ACTUAL REASON the Canadian Championship, as distinct from the V-Cup, was instituted as a competition -- I think sporting fairness means they should get a shot.  But they should be expected to prove that they'll be able to finance things, because the money isn't there in the tournament, and have a venue that meets tournament criteria.  Heck, we need more Canadian clubs for a lot of reasons, and I'm hopeful for continued growth there, but let's not think that it'll suddenly turn and already overachieving little tournament into the FA Cup from 50 years ago.

 

p.s. In case you care, Philly won the game on penalties, and will host the final.  They're new, enthusiastic, and have never won a trophy, so I think they'll get a better crowd.  Over/under at 14K sound fair?

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I know that there's this feeling that expanding the Canadian Championship to amateur levels would help.  I just feel that it's too early right now and may never be something I'm interested in.  The tournament hasn't even caught on in the general public yet.  Watering it down with low level teams would not help the sport in our country.

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I suppose it depends whether you think the only interest that matters is the interest among fans of the professional teams, or whether Victoria Highlanders, Thunder Bay Chill, etc. fans count as well.

(And I say "fans", but really if you skip a Voyageurs Cup game because it's not a glamorous enough opponent you're not a fan at all.)

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I know that there's this feeling that expanding the Canadian Championship to amateur levels would help.  I just feel that it's too early right now and may never be something I'm interested in.  The tournament hasn't even caught on in the general public yet.  Watering it down with low level teams would not help the sport in our country.

 

How would adding preliminary rounds "water down" the competition?  MLS clubs would still play the same number of games.  Put another way - does the fact that 9th-division Thurnby Nirvana humped 10th-division Lincoln Moorlands Railway by a 5-1 scoreline on Saturday "water down" the FA Cup?  Does it make Manchester United fans, who think the competition starts in January, any less excited about the competition?

 

You may be interested to know that Australia just launched the FFA Cup.  Including feeder competition, 621 clubs compete in it.  It's been getting some excellent media coverage.

 

Open cup competitions aren't just about the needs of the top clubs.  They can produce massive paydays and unprecedented media interest for the smaller clubs, and bring in all sorts of new fans.

 

If we're to grow the game here in Canada, it's not going to happen in places like BC Place.  Only having five clubs compete in our national cup competition is, quite frankly, absurd.

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If League1 and PLSQ stay stable and survive for the next few years, I think it's pretty clear that they will have a shot. Moving the tournament to summer opens a space in the spring for exactly this sort of thing.

 

D3 and amateurs play in April/May, are joined by USL/NASL in June and by MLS in July.

 

As long as the rounds maintain a regional focus and can limit travel costs, I think all leagues would be open to a game. The brand has national recognition(at least within sports circles) as well as TV interest, particularly as TSN now has 5 more space to fill. I know that playing against the Impact reserves certainly gave PLSQ a boost, and playing a game or two vs NASL might do the same.

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Australia's Cup...draw rules.... designed to build the game.

 

Format[edit]

The competition proper is a 32-team knockout tournament with pairings for each round drawn based on a seeding system to ensure the progression of teams lower down the Australian league system.

Fixtures for the FFA Cup will be decided on the date allocated for the fixture. In the event of a match being drawn after the completion of 90 minutes, extra time will be played. If scores are still level following extra time, the tie will be decided by a penalty shoot-out.[13]

A draw for each round will be made from the Round of 32 to the Semi-Finals. Clubs will be allocated into various pots depending on the clubs method of qualification and the specific round of competition.[13] The draw also determines which teams will play at home. If a Member Federation Club draws an A-League team, the Member Federation Club will host the fixture. However if two clubs at the same level are drawn together, the first teams drawn will host.[2]

Unlike "normal" application of seeds where a draw is made to ensure that the top seeds don't meet until the latter stages of the competition, the draw for the FFA Cup is seeded in such a way that it ensures the progression of lesser seeds to generate exposure and revenue for grassroots football clubs. The seeded FFA Cup draw ensures at least three Member Federation Clubs will qualify for the Quarter Finals with one club guaranteed to make the Semi Final.[13]

In order to minimise further impact that hosting the 2015 AFC Asian Cup will have on the 2014–15 A-League season, the inaugural FFA Cup Final will be held as a mid-week fixture on Tuesday 16 December 2014.[2][14] From the 2015–16 edition of the competition, the FFA Cup Final will be played on a yet to be determined weekend date to emphasise the importance of the Final.[14]

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Guest ClaytonA

The US Open Cup semifinal from Frisco, TX tonight: https://twitter.com/EmptySeatsPics/status/499389585466851328

 

(If you didn't click the link) Annouced attendance: 4,326

...

 

 

Cherry picking a poorly marketed and attended match is all too easy.  So is a well marketed and well attended match.  The average as you say is lower than what we currently have for the Voyageurs Cup and if it ends up not included in season ticket packages and attendances jump all over the place in Canada with a more open competition I'd say it was worth it to grow the game and add legitimacy to the competition. 

 

How many times have you read derisive comments about the "6 team competition up there" and so on when we have just as much, if not more history as they do - just not at the professional level.

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It would be shockingly easy to start this off small in the first year, just to show a commitment to a true Open Cup.  A huge knock-out tournament might be a bit much at first so just take the existing championships - Challenge Cup, Inter-Provincial Cup etc - and have their winners play-off for a berth in the VCC.  Would add like 2 games to the existing calendar and would at least give the amateur/semi-pro teams the (hypothetical) ability to get to the V-Cup final

Edited by xcalibre

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It would be shockingly easy to start this off small in the first year, just to show a commitment to a true Open Cup.  A huge knock-out tournament might be a bit much at first so just take the existing championships - Challenge Cup, Inter-Provincial Cup etc - and have their winners play-off for a berth in the VCC.  Would add like 2 games to the existing calendar and would at least give the amateur/semi-pro teams the (hypothetical) ability to get to the V-Cup final

I like that idea of commencing at such a level.  I would assume this will encompass all provinces and the various leagues winners from each province.

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I like that idea of commencing at such a level.  I would assume this will encompass all provinces and the various leagues winners from each province.

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Challenge Cup encompasses all amateur teams in the country.  PCSL teams can get in via their winter leagues' (VMSL, FVSL etc) spots in the BC Cup, while teams from the other top provincial leagues like the AMSL can get in via the Alberta Cup.  Only the two semi-pro leagues left over and they have the IPC now.  Add in the PDL team with the highest points total and everyone's covered

Edited by xcalibre

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Be great if the Callenge Cup win was a free entrant into the Voyageurs Cup. Also it would be great to have a PDL team enter. Maybe that's the playoff, PDL vs Challenge Cup winner faces off against one of the NASL teams.

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An open cup could be a great way to uncover hidden local talents that otherwise Floro might never bother with.

 

Something I never thought about, and yet so very true!!!

And not Just for the CMNT, but also to show what these amateur/semi-pro players can do infront of an NASL or MLS CLUB.

We have so much talent that will never have the chance, this alone should convince the CSA to implement an OPEN CUP.

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I want this to allow any adult clubs anywhere in Canada to enter, so I can enter Saskatoon Celtic (where we will probably get destroyed by Husky Alumni or a similar top div team). Would still be happy to see our club's name listed as one that participated in the tournament.

 

I'd also argue that the Challenge Cup champ would crush the PDL champ every time. There are ex-pros playing for amateur sides in pretty well every province. HUSA Alumni is full of guys who didn't make it in Europe due to unfortunate injuries during their trials.

Edited by Tuscan

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