Jump to content
Trillium

Why a fully open ... Voyageurs Cup is needed to grow the game...

Recommended Posts

Here below the second round match ups in the USA Open Cup

U.S. OPEN CUP SCHEDULE, Second Round

May 21 in Rochester, N.Y.

Rochester Rhinos (USL PRO) vs. GPS Portland Phoenix (PDL)

Winner plays New England Revolution (MLS)

May 21 in Richmond, Va.

Richmond Kickers (USL PRO) vs. Icon FC (USASA)

Winner plays D.C. United (MLS)

May 21 in Reading, Pa.

Reading United AC (PDL) vs. Harrisburg City Islanders (USL PRO)

Winner plays New York Red Bulls (MLS)

May 21 in Ocean City, N.J.

Ocean City Nor'easters (PDL) vs. Pittsburgh Riverhounds (USL PRO)

Winner plays Philadelphia Union (MLS)

May 21 in Beavercreek, Ohio

Dayton Dutch Lions (USL PRO) vs. Dearborn Stars (USASA)

Winner plays Columbus Crew (MLS)

May 21 in Cary, N.C.

Carolina RailHawks (NASL) vs. Carolina Dynamo (PDL)

Winner plays LA Galaxy (MLS)

May 21 in Plant City, Fla.

VSI Tampa Bay (USL PRO) vs. Tampa Bay Rowdies (NASL)

Winner plays Seattle Sounders (MLS)

May 21 in Ocala, Fla.

Ocala Stampede (PDL) vs. Orlando City (USL PRO)

Winner plays Colorado Rapids (MLS)

May 21 in St. Paul, Minn.

Minnesota United FC (NASL) vs. Des Moines Menace (PDL)

Winner plays Sporting Kansas City (MLS)

May 21 in San Antonio, Texas

San Antonio Scorpions (NASL) vs. FC Tucson (PDL)

Winner plays Houston Dynamo (MLS)

May 21 in Austin, Texas

Austin Aztex (PDL) vs. Wilmington Hammerheads (USL PRO)

Winner plays Portland Timbers (MLS)

May 21 in Fullerton, Calif.

L.A. Blues (USL PRO) vs. Ventura County Fusion (PDL)

Winner plays Chivas USA (MLS)

May 21 in Portland, Ore.

Portland Timbers U-23s (PDL) vs. Charleston Battery (USL PRO)

Winner plays San Jose Earthquakes (MLS)

May 21 in Charlotte, N.C.

Charlotte Eagles (USL PRO) vs. Sounders FC U-23s (PDL)

Winner plays Chicago Fire (MLS)

May 21 in Conyers, Ga.

Georgia Revolution (NPSL) vs. Atlanta Silverbacks (NASL)

Winner plays Real Salt Lake (MLS)

May 21 in Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

Fort Lauderdale Strikers (NASL) vs. Laredo Heat (PDL)

Winner plays FC Dallas (MLS)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ClaytonA

More specifically with an underdog upsetting a higher league team it makes TV sports sections and all the local newspapers. Try googling FC Tucson news right now after their upset of the Phoenix Wolves. Lots of earned marketing for the team and sport.

There's just great opportunities for a soccer club to have a big event when they can afford to compete, have some organization, and have the opportunity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very true and I don't think I'll ever forget the Havant & Waterlooville run from a few years back in England. That is the stuff of legends. For the V's Cup we really need more MLS vs NASL games. Having all the lower level teams play each other and then only one join the MLS trio for the final 4 doesn't generate as much interest as having a D1 team come to town.

I've tried to come up with something for a 5 team tournament but I'm having no luck other than round robin (8 games). But RR has its own drawbacks with eliminated teams focusing on league play. Getting another 3 teams would be ideal for 2 brackets of 4 (6 games + 2 final). Regional D3 champs being added would require regional D3 leagues (west, ontario, quebec+east).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Very true and I don't think I'll ever forget the Havant & Waterlooville run from a few years back in England. That is the stuff of legends. For the V's Cup we really need more MLS vs NASL games. Having all the lower level teams play each other and then only one join the MLS trio for the final 4 doesn't generate as much interest as having a D1 team come to town.

I've tried to come up with something for a 5 team tournament but I'm having no luck other than round robin (8 games). But RR has its own drawbacks with eliminated teams focusing on league play. Getting another 3 teams would be ideal for 2 brackets of 4 (6 games + 2 final). Regional D3 champs being added would require regional D3 leagues (west, ontario, quebec+east).

Final group of four entering is 3 MLS squads plus highest ranked NASL squad (assumes two NASL in Canada ).

Before that the amateurs etc. do geographic random draws,

Maritimes,

Quebec,

Ontario 1,

Ontario 2,

Manitoba/Sask,

Alberta,

BC

Second ranked NASL team.

producing one team each plus the number two NASL franchise gives you eight teams to play off.

Leaving four winners to go up against 3MLS+top NASL, in last four games, becomes two at next round and then Grand Final of V Cup in last home and home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah they need to do something with this by 2015 Voyageurs Cup, I agree with you guys. Sounds like they already are going to do a 5 team only thing for 2014, so it's 2015 in which they need to be convinced. Unfortunately, as has been well documented, it's not as though the CSA and the CSL are on great terms right now, but hopefully by then some positive restructuring will have occurred to make this feasible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
show me da monayyyyy!

better things CSA can spend money on (unless V Cup suddenly gets a massive sponsorship boost)

The money comes from gate fees, split 40% to Vistor, 40% to Host, and 20% to V cup fund ( which should be hived off from the CSA as a separate entity for financial reasons).

Funding for travel of amateur clubs that get to end rounds comes out of gate reciepts or subsidy program from V Cup ctte ( the 20% ) the Pro clubs get to suck it up for the good of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This really is the way to go in Canada. In fact, I think that such a competition has a far better chance of surviving than a Canadian league. Grow the open competition. The league can wait.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This really is the way to go in Canada. In fact, I think that such a competition has a far better chance of surviving than a Canadian league. Grow the open competition. The league can wait.

Personally I think growing the open competition would be the best path towards our own league. You'd have the stability of American leagues for the clubs running parallel to a demonstration that domestic competition can be done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What's more important for the growth of Canadian club soccer than growing the game in smaller markets?

dreams should be practical, and done in steps.

it's stupid to do something that'll put V Cup bleed losses, can no longer sustain itself and may even be required to be scrapped all together. money does not grow in trees, nor are there sponsors lining up to give money to CSA

in comparison, US Open Cup has top prize purse of 250k. and this took years and years to develop and this is peanuts for prize money really

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dreams should be practical, and done in steps.

it's stupid to do something that'll put V Cup bleed losses, can no longer sustain itself and may even be required to be scrapped all together. money does not grow in trees, nor are there sponsors lining up to give money to CSA

in comparison, US Open Cup has top prize purse of 250k. and this took years and years to develop and this is peanuts for prize money really

You are making an assumption an Open V Cup will bleed losses, yet you have not put up any A base budget presumptions to justify your "bleeding" assertion.

Questions you need to ask yourself abut CSA and money.

1. Do you know how much is spent annually on the National All Star championships ( which contribute nothing to the games growth ).

2. Do you have any idea of the cost of the National Men's Club championship and the CSA expenditure on the event ( which would go away with an Open V club ).

3. If we have five pro teams, NASL/MLS in the later rounds, what is your presumption of attendance at the games, and at what price point ?

4. If we five pro teams and 3 others in final grouping and play home and away, out of eight games we get four games in 20k stadia and one game ( in Edmonton in a five K venue ). Lets assume 5k average attendance at $20.00 a ticket, or 100k X four games for $400,000 gate receipts, plus what the other four games generate three of which in smaller stadia might have 2k attendance and one of which will be in bigger venue with another 100k gate assumption. So 500K revenue plus on gates to fund travel subsidy for the amateur clubs @ 20% gets you 100k for travel for three teams, thats more then enough.

5. If you do the 40% and 40% split you get a heck of a lot more cash flowing to the amateur clubs to fund travel in the final rounds, they will likely not need the travel subisidy as the split will cover their costs.

6. As to sponsors, I suspect a true Open Cup with its own autonomous ctte and ability to gather independent of other CSA programs can get sponsor cash, that is more the in lieu labour or product.

The biggest fear the entrenched have about a true open cup is the fear some amateur club will come along and knock of a pro club in a majour market.

But that is just why a open cup is a perfect vehicle in Canada to grow the game, it gives oppourtunity, one of the keystones of this country ... open oppourtunity to succeed.

Lets make that happen for club soccer in Canada.

http://thecup.us/2013-us-open-cup-bracket/ Look at how the USSF has done the brackets.... the CSA can do the same.

Edited by Trillium

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are making an assumption an Open V Cup will bleed losses, yet you have not put up any A base budget presumptions to justify your "bleeding" assertion.

Yohan. I don't know if you know how we do things around here, but base budget presumptions accompanying posts are pretty standard. Get your **** correct and don't come back to post until you have columns and sheets yo. Also, making a rational point in which we have to take your word for it, is rather out dated.

Dumb it down and dream big.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity, what would any of the MLS clubs gain from flying half way across the country, mid season, to play a small local club in a stadium that seats a couple thousand people? The risk is likely greater than the reward. The 40% gate receipts would not cover the cost of them flying out there, let alone the risk of injury to a key player if they field an A squad. If they lose, it only hurts their brand and a win does little to increase it.

These clubs are far more concerned with growing the game in their own markets then they are with growing the game in an area which will likely never produce a serious number of ticket and merchandise buyers.

I understand what you guys are hoping for, but I don't see the incentives for any of the MLS (or NASL) clubs to change the current system. And if they aren't on board, then the V-Cup will quickly become meaningless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Out of curiosity, what would any of the MLS clubs gain from flying half way across the country, mid season, to play a small local club in a stadium that seats a couple thousand people?

Who cares? If they don't want to play in the CONCACAF Champions League, and maybe they don't, they're welcome not to participate in an expanded Voyageurs Cup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With 2014 having 5 projected Pro Clubs in Canada here is my solution:

Best three Semi Pro teams in Canada, as determined by Provincial championship/ PDL point accumilation are put into a hat with the Pro sides.

Quarterfinal played as a single game, Whomever comes out of the bag first get home turf.

Some little clubs will make some money.

Some big clubs will (In the case of TFC) field their worst team and get themselves eliminated as soon as possible.

so as to discharge their obligation with as little expense as possible.

Oh and yes SEEDING IS FOR TENNIS TOURNAMENTS and ensuring FIFA does not end up looking stupid during world Cups.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The biggest fear the entrenched have about a true open cup is the fear some amateur club will come along and knock of a pro club in a majour market.

Actually I think the biggest fear is the exact opposite, that the amateur clubs will be completely non-competitive and get blown out even playing against largely reserve squads. And as an Impact fan I wouldn't want to risk even our bench players getting injured to these amateur players playing way out of their depth in games in which the result is pre-determined due to the disparity in playing level. And is a club from a smaller city really going to pack people in the stadium getting their ass kicked by an MLS reserve team?

What people are ignoring is that the countries that have these nationwide cup competitions that include amateur teams also have highly structure league pyramids in which all these teams fit into and which is integrated into the cup system. Now there is the odd series of upset that produces a surprise match but for the most part the professional teams in these leagues do not have to play against the really low level sides that our teams would have to play against if we opened up the competition because those teams are already eliminated long before the professional teams enter the competition.

I am actually for the idea of a fully open cup but I think there needs to be some development and improvement in the league structure in Canada before we can do this or we risk turning the Voyageurs Cup into a bit of a joke. I am also not convinced that the hodgepodge of amateur clubs in Canada would really benefit much right now by being included in a competition like this where they will not play the pro teams regulars and will still get the crap kicked out of them by reserve squads. What needs to be done is the implementation of a D3 system across Canada with some sort of regional and national championships so there are structured leagues and clubs with a standardized and hopefully steadily improving level not a hodgepodge of clubs in a variety of leagues and with varying but mostly very low levels of play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2013 Lamar Hunt US Open Cup results

The Third Round field is complete and there were plenty of surprises in Round 2, including a Modern Professional Era record four PDL teams earning dates with a Major League Soccer clubs. The US Open Cup’s annual display of David vs. Goliath match-ups is alive and well in its 100th year.

So with a very simular system to Canada.. i.e. a hodgepode leagues and levels, we see four PDL teams going against MLS squads after beating out NASL squads and USL pro Squads.

Seems to me its a indication that if you have a young team who works hard and is well coached you can get a date with a much higher team and show off what you have....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually I think the biggest fear is the exact opposite, that the amateur clubs will be completely non-competitive and get blown out even playing against largely reserve squads. And as an Impact fan I wouldn't want to risk even our bench players getting injured to these amateur players playing way out of their depth in games in which the result is pre-determined due to the disparity in playing level. And is a club from a smaller city really going to pack people in the stadium getting their ass kicked by an MLS reserve team?

What people are ignoring is that the countries that have these nationwide cup competitions that include amateur teams also have highly structure league pyramids in which all these teams fit into and which is integrated into the cup system. Now there is the odd series of upset that produces a surprise match but for the most part the professional teams in these leagues do not have to play against the really low level sides that our teams would have to play against if we opened up the competition because those teams are already eliminated long before the professional teams enter the competition.

I am actually for the idea of a fully open cup but I think there needs to be some development and improvement in the league structure in Canada before we can do this or we risk turning the Voyageurs Cup into a bit of a joke. I am also not convinced that the hodgepodge of amateur clubs in Canada would really benefit much right now by being included in a competition like this where they will not play the pro teams regulars and will still get the crap kicked out of them by reserve squads. What needs to be done is the implementation of a D3 system across Canada with some sort of regional and national championships so there are structured leagues and clubs with a standardized and hopefully steadily improving level not a hodgepodge of clubs in a variety of leagues and with varying but mostly very low levels of play.

All very good point Grizz.

Some peole look at the FA Cup as the model to aspire to but to be honest those teams who do knock out Manchester United on Occasion tend to be on the rise in their repective division and are usually promotion candidates.

Also whilst the essence of the FC cup has not change: A bag with balls in it and the luck of the draw favoring a potential shock. ( Who knew the competion started as challenge cup where the objective was to progress to the final to meet previous years winning team?). The Tournament has nearly 700 entrants each year. Thats' why it is phased. Not seeded as has been suggested. Seeding would pre determin all lower clubs would get higher league competion, which also ensure that EPL teams didn't face a team of Park cloggers.

However, that was never the intention and phasing is only really a respose to the amount of entry request.

Where the fun comes in is that EPL team, when they go into the bag in Round three can meet in round three. So their is always a chance a lower league club can sneek into the following round. thats the non-league fans dream.

The non-league chairmans dream is for an awayday to old trafford that will pay off the wages for a year!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2013 Lamar Hunt US Open Cup results

The Third Round field is complete and there were plenty of surprises in Round 2, including a Modern Professional Era record four PDL teams earning dates with a Major League Soccer clubs. The US Open Cup’s annual display of David vs. Goliath match-ups is alive and well in its 100th year.

So with a very simular system to Canada.. i.e. a hodgepode leagues and levels, we see four PDL teams going against MLS squads after beating out NASL squads and USL pro Squads.

Seems to me its a indication that if you have a young team who works hard and is well coached you can get a date with a much higher team and show off what you have....

The one thing I didn't like personally was allowing NErevs playes at Rochester to play against their parent team. Devalues the compeative nature of the competition for me. Same with the dutch cup letting academy side play thier Parent clubs..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ClaytonA
Actually I think the biggest fear is the exact opposite, that the amateur clubs will be completely non-competitive and get blown out even playing against largely reserve squads. And as an Impact fan I wouldn't want to risk even our bench players getting injured to these amateur players playing way out of their depth in games in which the result is pre-determined due to the disparity in playing level. And is a club from a smaller city really going to pack people in the stadium getting their ass kicked by an MLS reserve team?

What people are ignoring is that the countries that have these nationwide cup competitions that include amateur teams also have highly structure league pyramids in which all these teams fit into and which is integrated into the cup system. Now there is the odd series of upset that produces a surprise match but for the most part the professional teams in these leagues do not have to play against the really low level sides that our teams would have to play against if we opened up the competition because those teams are already eliminated long before the professional teams enter the competition.

I am actually for the idea of a fully open cup but I think there needs to be some development and improvement in the league structure in Canada before we can do this or we risk turning the Voyageurs Cup into a bit of a joke. I am also not convinced that the hodgepodge of amateur clubs in Canada would really benefit much right now by being included in a competition like this where they will not play the pro teams regulars and will still get the crap kicked out of them by reserve squads. What needs to be done is the implementation of a D3 system across Canada with some sort of regional and national championships so there are structured leagues and clubs with a standardized and hopefully steadily improving level not a hodgepodge of clubs in a variety of leagues and with varying but mostly very low levels of play.

Sure MLS is getting better...but give me a break! UBC, the team that was CIS champion last year beat the Whitecaps in a friendly this year. The gap is not as big as you imagine. First team yes, but the squad depth is just not there.

Also besides the PDL and CSL teams for a second, what about the PLSQ? Remember them? This is an existing D3 level league sanctioned and on good terms with the Quebec and Canadian associations. Supposedly what the CSA, I mean provinces, are trying to create. Why not include their champion in 2005? Give them some legitimacy with a regional playoff against someone down east.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
..what about the PLSQ? Remember them? This is an existing D3 level league sanctioned and on good terms with the Quebec and Canadian associations.

Seems to me there is a case to be made for including them, or at least a representative (ie. 2013 champs enter into 2014 VCup.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The CSA just needs to set the standards and make them public. If there are teams that can meet the standards (money, stadium etc.) then they can enter. Transparency is the key. With Ottawa in, that's 5 teams, I say keep the format just adding a round. Three extra teams. Controlled growth. Sorry horse. I know you're dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The CSA just needs to set the standards and make them public. If there are teams that can meet the standards (money, stadium etc.) then they can enter. Transparency is the key. With Ottawa in, that's 5 teams, I say keep the format just adding a round. Three extra teams. Controlled growth. Sorry horse. I know you're dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[u.S. OPEN CUP REWIND: Third Round] Orlando City and the Charleston Battery showed why they are the top two teams in USL PRO, knocking off MLS clubs Colorado and San Jose, respectively, in third-round play in the centennial edition of the U.S. Open Cup.

Forward Dom Dwyer, who has already tied the USL PRO single-season scoring record with 13 goals in 11 games, notched two goals in the second half to lead first-place Orlando City to its first-ever win over an MLS club in Open Cup play.

“I think just before and during the second half we were far and away the better team,” said Orlando City coach Adrian Heath. “I thought we were worthy winners and it would have been a travesty if we didn’t take home the win.”

Bryan Burke put Orlando on the board early with a goal in the 4th minute, but Colorado quickly responded when midfielder Kamani Hill jumped on a bad pass and scored in the 17th minute. Colorado goalkeeper Steward Ceus was sent off in the 57th minute.

Next up for Orlando City will be Sporting Kansas City, which loaned Dwyer and three other players to the USL PRO for the 2013 season.

-- The Battery defeated the Earthquakes, 1-0, on captain Colin Falvey's header in the 74th minute. It was the Battery's ninth win over an MLS club. It previously beat D.C. United (1999), the MetroStars (2001, 2004), Houston Dynamo (2007, 2008), FC Dallas (2008), Chivas USA (2009) and Chicago Fire (2010).

-- There were several other close calls for lower-tiered teams. The Philadelphia Union beat the PDL's Ocean City Nor'easters, 2-1, on Brian Carroll's goal in the third minute of stoppage time, two minutes after Emanuel Kollie tied the score for the Nor'easters. Chivas USA rallied from a goal down to beat USL PRO's LA Blues, 2-1, on goalie Dan Kennedy's second-half penalty kick.Chicago Fire loan player Kellen Gulley scored in the 86th minute to send the Atlanta Silverbacks game at Real Salt Lake to overtime, where the home team prevailed, 3-2. D.C. United lost two players to red cards in overtime but beat its affiliate, the Richmond Kickers, in a shootout.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×