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Canadian Nationalization Countdown

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My point was to say that Joe (and anyone else who thinks the same way) must have no one to support if he only wants born and raised Canadians on any team he supports.
I have never, ever made that statement. Good luck trying to prove the opposite because I have never meant or said it. If you want to know my opinion it is this. You must be a citizen, pass the "trivia quiz", stand before the judge and the Mountie, take the oath and sing the anthem. That includes Borjan. Hume is a ridiculous example as he came here when he was one and I don't recall the history of Jackson but he was a citizen who lived here. My arguments are against the Birchams and Whores of the world. If Bircham did the above, I'll admit I'm wrong, but he don't live here now.

And as I've stated a million times here I have no problem with JDG2 because at least he became a citizen of the Netherlands. My problem was with him jerking us around for so long.

Edited by Joe MacCarthy

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Under Canadian law, Bircham is just as Canadian as Joe McCarthy. He's also a coach for our youth national team and knows the anthem very well as I've seen him sing it many times. I've seen Marc have a beer with the Voyageurs, but I've never once heard of Joe McCarthy coming to a match or participating in any Voyageur activity. I suspect that like OH, Joe is person who's views run counter to those of most people expressed here.

Edited by youllneverwalkalone
spellinh

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Is he a citizen? You didn't answer that. The argument isn't about me or if Bircham is a nice guy or not. Answer this, does he live here? How does that help our youth setup. We all saw how the Morace experiment worked out.

How can any of this be good if a country like France can pillage its former colonies. How does that help build the game in Algeria and Morocco?

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Why do we have to view football, or the world for that matter, with ideological purity? I understand that you need to throw Bircham under the bus in order to justify your views about OH. For me, it's a lot simpler: I love Marc Bircham because I'm a fan of Canada and he played for Canada; I don't like OH because he did the opposite. Where they reside is irrelevant. Is Paul Peschisolido not Canadian now because he reides in the UK? He's exactly the same as Bircham and countless people who contribute to this board every day: a Canadian citizen who resides abroad. You favourite thread is Canadians Abroad! Why all this jingoist crap that you need to live in Humbolt, listen to Don Cherry, eat at Tim Horton's thrice daily to be a Canadian. This is a message board dedicated to Canada's place in the world's game. Where people reside is both irrelevant to citizenship and to this community.

Edited by youllneverwalkalone

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Guest Brethers

But it's not pillaging, at least not the example you gave of France. It's calling up players who are available to you to give your country the best chance at winning. Winning gives the whole country a great feeling, it improves your country's profile. Young Canadians playing football will look at us win stuff and say "I want to be part of that" or they will be inspired to carry on with football instead of moving to a different sport. If the kid does say naaah screw that some of them aren't real Canadians so I don't want to play for my country, then do we want them playing for us with that attitude? That's a quitters attitude

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You must be a citizen, pass the "trivia quiz", stand before the judge and the Mountie, take the oath and sing the anthem. That includes Borjan.

Bircham is a citizen - he would have acquired a Passport through his grandparent being born in Canada, and wouldn't have been allowed to play for us internationally if he wasn't. I think what you are asking for is for players to have to be residents of the country they are representing, which is entirely different. Neither Bircham or OH would have been a resident of the either country but they were certainly citizens.

I agree with Brethers - take advantage of what you can to inspire future Canadians to stay with us. It isn't an idea situation, but as you may have noticed, we don't live in an ideal world.

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Bircham is a citizen... I think what you are asking for is for players to have to be residents of the country they are representing, which is entirely different.

Exactly. And I'd give anyone a pass who doesn't know the ins and outs of FIFA regulations on this matter; but anyone on this board who gets up on their soap box so frequently on this issue should at least understand the basic concept that FIFA eligiblity is tied to citizenship which, in turn, is tied to law. International football is no different than any other activity that rewards citizenship. The fact that this guy's favourite thread -which he routinely posts in with rude comments for anyone not following his made up rules- is ironic on so many levels that I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Guess what Joe: our Captain Kevin McKenna has been a resident of Germany for many years; like as long as you've posted here.

I'm the last person to be sensitive or read too much into people's comments but, having been a member of this forum for going on 8 years and having read similar posts from Joe this entire time, my sense is he's at least deeply xenophobic if not racist. Personally, I think we should do what other supporters groups have and officially condemn this type of behaviour. It doesn't mean we can't still hate Whoregreaves. Absolute ideoligical consistency is for facists, bolsheviks, and other weak minded individuals.

Edited by youllneverwalkalone

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^ It is only different bc you have chosen to rationalise it is different. He was a new Canadian who had no connection to Canada aside from his living and playing in Canada at that time..

Nedved’s only citizenship was Canadian at the time, ‘new Canadian’ or not Nedved was only Canadian and could only represent Canada. To this day Nedved won’t name the people who helped him defect for fear of reprisal. Leaving a repressive regime for a better life is a far different situation than the mercenary for hire scenario MacCarthy is talking about. It’s not I disagree with you I just feel Nedved is a poor example. A better example is Tyler Myers.

You still haven't answered, is he a citizen? Or is it all right for countries to pillage one another. If so why bother with international play if realistically it means nothing.

Bircham is a Canadian citizen I looked around during the whole JDG2 wants to play for Canada thread. On his twitter he states, “ I have my Canadian passport” meaning he is a Canadian citizen. You misunderstand the FIFA eligibility rules, you have to be a citizen AND meet the requirements by FIFA.

Hypothetically, let’s pretend a rich V with connections got a passport for Manuel Almunia, left him a big bag of money with the dollar sign on it, and wrote a note stating, “play for Canada.” Almunia, despite being a Canadian citizen cannot play for Canada because he wasn’t born in Canada, his parents aren’t Canadian, his grandparents aren’t Canadian and he never lived in Canada. This may sound like a ridiculous situation, but Qatar and Togo were giving away citizenship to Brazilian players after a short residency time.

In 2004 FIFA amended their eligibility rules to combat this; the rules are restrictive in nature it isn’t enabling this mercenary scenario. Eligibility rules aren’t the problem, they have to take into account all the different nationality laws and governments bend their rules for athletes.

Hypothetically, let’s say I was born in Germany and returned to Canada at age 1; being born in Germany doesn’t entitle me German citizenship. Without German citizenship I cannot play for Germany, but if I was good enough to play for Germany and I wanted to, someone would find a back door way for me to get German citizenship. Being a German citizen and being born in Germany I am allowed to play for Germany under FIFA rules.

Canada has very liberal nationality laws, we are one of the few nations that follow both jus sanguinis (right of blood) and Jus soli (right of soil) principles of nationality. If you are born here or have a parent who is Canadian, you can become Canadian. A good example of this is Pedro Pacheco, I believe his mother immigrated to Canada and became a citizen. Under Canada’s family reunification program, Pacheco was able to obtain Canadian citizenship despite having limited ties to Canada and allowed to play for Canada because under the eligibility rules he had a Canadian mother(no doubt rules were bent for him). Had his mother immigrated to a nation in Europe with restrictive nationality laws, Pacheco despite having a mother who is (X) nationality wouldn’t be able to play for (X) nation because he couldn’t obtain their citizenship. What this means is if we want Manuel Almunia to play for Canada, we need to get his mother a passport and a big bag of money :P.

I don’t like the naturalization route either, but we can’t afford to be at a competitive disadvantage for the sake of principles, especially when we give citizenship to everyone anyway. Personally if we naturalize a player, I would hope that player wants to live in Canada and help the development of our program both on and off the field in the future. If Dicho was younger and he played for Canada, I would see this as the ideal situation for a naturalized player. As for Frei, as much as I would like a player of his ability to play for Canada, you know he is back to the USA or Switzerland the moment his career is over and he would be nothing more than a hired gun.

Edited by finchster

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I'm the last person to be sensitive or read too much into people's comments but, having been a member of this forum for going on 8 years and having read similar posts from Joe this entire time, my sense is he's at least deeply zenophobic if not racist. Personally, I think we should do what other supporters groups have and officially condemn this type of behaviour. It doesn't mean we can't still hate Whoregreaves. Absolute ideoligical consistency is for facists, bolsheviks, and other weak minded individuals.

I disagree with Joe far more often than I agree with him, even been on the recieving end of a few of his broadsides. But these remarks are both baseless and uncalled for. He has strong opinins on the value/worth of being Canadian and holding Canadian citizenship. There is nothing illegitimate, z(x)enophobic or racist about that. He is further "out there" on the matter than I am, but he has been quite clear that he is not opposed to immigratants, colour or anything of that ilk.

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We are a country built on immigration. Coming here to earn a living playing soccer is no different than any of the multitude of economic reasons that drives much of that immigration. If a player goes through the process, gets his/her citizenship, then they should be allowed to play for Canada IMO.

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Seriously, one of the worst threads ever.

Why on earth would almost any of these players make me excited? Frei? A waste of breath. He wants to play for the swiss, has shown zero interest in playing for Canada and honestly, even now, I'd drop him to maybe #3 on our depth chart. In a couple more years, maybe not even top 3. Kocic and Hardin? Hardin? Seriously? You want me to get excited about waiting three years to let an american pylon wear Canadian colours? And wait four years for a bunch of players, some of which have been here barely 4 months? Again with the Ekersley guy too... What do you people see in him? He runs around like a chicken with his head cut off. He chases the ball like a 4 year old in community soccer. Gets a good cross in once in awhile but for every half decent cross, he gets stuck up field and leaves an already shaky backline that much more vulnerable. He's awful. No thank you.

I'm not opposed to players either with Canadian roots or an actual interest in becoming Canadian being considered but I'd like them to actually be able to play. And a four year wait? They'd have to be of a Hoilett quality or a JDG2 quality to get me excited for that kinda wait.

Now that we have three Canadian MLS teams, there will be much more young, up and coming talent coming from out of Canada.

Another bonus is that we will now have the opportunity to nationalize some other players that don't fit into the plans of other national teams. A few of these guys could have the opportunity to represent Canada in a few years, so long as they stay with a Canadian team long enough (and stay out of the picture with their current national team).

I've added some guys that have caps as well, but aren't currently cap tied. I know some people here don't like the idea of poaching players from other countries, but the majority of these guys would never get a sniff with their national teams anyways.

I've decided to leave out anyone that would be over 32 at the time they could receive their citizenship, as its unlikely they could factor in anyways.

Also, I am not advocating that any of these guys are good enough to start for Canada, but even depth is good to have.

2 YEARS UNTIL CANADIAN

Stefan Frei, Toronto FC, Switzerland (0 Caps), 28 in 2014

3 YEARS UNTIL CANADIAN

Milos Kocic, Toronto FC, Serbia (0 Caps), 30 in 2015

Ty Harden, Toronto FC, United States (0 Caps), 31 in 2015

4 YEARS UNTIL CANADIAN

Richard Eckersley, Toronto FC, England (0 Caps), 27 in 2016

Nick Soolsma, Toronto FC, Netherlands (0 Caps), 28 in 2016

Long Tan, Vancouver Whitecaps, China (0 Caps), 28 in 2016

Michael Nanchoff, Vancouver Whitecaps, United States (0 Caps), 28 in 2016

Jeb Brovsky, Montreal Impact, United States (0 Caps), 28 in 2016

Eric Avila, Toronto FC, United States (0 Caps), 29 in 2016

Camilo Sanvezzo, Vancouver Whitecaps, Brazil (0 Caps), 29 in 2016

Evan Bush, Montreal Impact, United States (0 Caps), 30 in 2016

Jordan Harvey, Vancouver Whitecaps, United States (0 Caps), 32 in 2016

Hassoun Camara, Montreal Impact, France (0 Caps), 32 in 2016

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I disagree with Joe far more often than I agree with him, even been on the recieving end of a few of his broadsides. But these remarks are both baseless and uncalled for. He has strong opinins on the value/worth of being Canadian and holding Canadian citizenship. There is nothing illegitimate, z(x)enophobic or racist about that. He is further "out there" on the matter than I am, but he has been quite clear that he is not opposed to immigratants, colour or anything of that ilk.

Fair enough. But the notion of tying citizenship to residence went the way of the dodo and doesn't particularly support his opening stance in this thread. I have nothing against the man, but his comments are offensive to those many people who are proud Canadians residing abroad for whatever reason -including Marc Bircham, who has done and continues to do a lot for the game in Canada.

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How can any of this be good if a country like France can be pillaged by its former colonies.

FYP. Countries like Algeria and Morocco benefit tremendously from the leftovers of France (and the Netherlands in Morocco's case).

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From the updated list the following seem as if they'd likely be quality additions for depth at minimum to the CMNT....

2 YEARS UNTIL CANADIAN

Stefan Frei, Toronto FC, Switzerland (0 Caps), 28 in 2014

3 YEARS UNTIL CANADIAN

Milos Kocic, Toronto FC, Serbia (0 Caps), 30 in 2015

4 YEARS UNTIL CANADIAN

Eric Avila, Toronto FC, United States (0 Caps), 29 in 2016

Camilo Sanvezzo, Vancouver Whitecaps, Brazil (0 Caps), 29 in 2016

Others will come along....seems Koffie is a non-starter but it'd be great if that rule changed or we were wrong! He'd be a stud for CMNT.

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I don't see that it has been mentioned, but what about the lifelong impact on Canadian Soccer of someone like Carl Valentine.

Its not just the playing years, all the years of coaching and being an ambassador for the game are worth something. I think this kind of guys can continue to help growing our footballing culture which should be the goal.

I don't know how actively we should be recruiting these guys, but if Camilo happens to last here long enough and married a Canadian girl (*I think he might be married already) and loves Canada and wants to be a citizen, we surely should let him play.

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I think people are trying to draw a distinction between guys like Valentine and Eduardo Sebrango who moved to Canada, loved it, and consider it their home in a non-soccer sense, versus somebody who still thinks of himself as Swiss or Brazilian and will live somewhere else when he retires but would take a Canadian call-up if he was eligible.

Like many of us I would much rather have a Canadian-loving immigrant on my MNT than a mercenary. I like my national team to mean something. But I have no idea how we'd distinguish the two.

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where would someone like Radzinski fit in? Yes I know he was an immigrant, but how long did he really live in Canada for and will he ever live here again? Does he consider himself Canadian?

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Guest soccer1

Petr Nedved played for Canada while he was Czech Citizen...Hahaha...:)

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CSA has to naturalize-cap as many as they can. Felipe, Sanvezzo, Frei, Koffie - all of them. Build the base. A guy like Koffie would surely be in our first team if we clean house.

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By all accounts from pretty darn credible people, there is a load of talent coming up through the younger academy teams across the country. I hope it's more than blind optimism.

The only one on that list I would like is Eckersley, only for the reason that should he ever play in the kind of sh!t shows we get in Central America, I think he would try and kill someone on the field. It would be entertaining.

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