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Blue and White Army

Is it time to expanded the Canadian Championship to lower divisions?

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Hi. Sorry, I wasn't trying to put down the players in this league. I'm sure they're many of the best local amateur players, and if they all played in the NASL for a Hamilton team they could be as successful as FC Edmonton has been this year on the pitch. And I hear what you are saying about the PDL.

However, I have a problem with a sports league that divides up a large metropolitan area along tribal lines, as the CSL has always done. It's a proven failure as a method for creating a viable professional sports entity in Canada, and therefore by continuing to exist as it is, it is an impediement to the growth of a successful Tier 3 regionalised Canadian soccer system of leagues. As long as multiple ethnic-based clubs within one urban area are involved, I cannot take the CSL to be anything more than a social organisation. If the CSL had teams from Windsor, St Cath, Kingston, Brantford, coupled with teams with distinct geographical distinctions (ie Scarborough, Mississagua, etc) rather than Toronto Italia, Toronto Croatia, Toronto Portuguese, Toronto Maldive Islanders, etc, then it would begin to lose its bush-league aspect in my eyes. Until it does, it will continue to be a dead-end in terms of the development of a proper Canadian soccer pyramid. If I lived in Metro Toronto I would not follow any team that was dependent upon some ethnic tribe for its identity. The focus should be on sport, not where your parents came from, when you are part of a sports organisation in Canada.

If the PCSL had teams from Nanaimo, Kamloops, Victoria, and Kelowna competing against teams from a geographically sub-divided Vancouver (say, Vancouver, North Shore, Burnaby, Surrey, and Abbottsford), then I could get into following it. That works in junior football, in hockey, and in lacrosse in British Columbia, where these sports get out enough fans to pay for their travel, and give a little under the table to the players (which I think is great). But when it has a team of Christian proselytisers calling themselves Athletes in Action, and a team of Sikh proselytisers called Khalsa Sport, then I'm sorry, it's not directed at fans, and therefore it isn't worthy of my time or interest.

The CSL has recently been mentioned in match rigging and betting scandals, which is what my "gong-show" reference is to. Cheers.

that's a little generalized, I'll start at the end, their is currently a possible scandal going on, not a big history or a littany of condemnable people (*coughserieAcough*), it's hardly even noteworthy as far as footballing scandals go so the gong show reference is just incorrect (gong show would tend to mean repeating, no?)

Now I'll skip to the start, the CSL is semi-pro not amateur (ie part time contracts, maybe the odd full time).

As for your bulk paragraph: You do realize that these ethnic based clubs are subject to the same canadian quota restriction (and all have generally been developing kids for Canada)? The ethnic tags generally just indicate the history (and the historic fan base), ownership/management and maybe a preferred scouting area. Also theirs a whole ton of ethnic teams world wide (ever wonder why River Plate isn't called Rio de la Plata?), it's hardly 'bush league'. Some of these clubs are the real survivors of canadian football, and as long as they can compete, I could care less if they have an ethnic tag or not. (btw, a couple of the what ?5? overtly ethnic team names have changed to regions anyways sooooo...)

It honestly seems like a pretty fickle reason to judge the football because they have ethnic teams, just check out a couple matches.

Edited by Juby

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As for your bulk paragraph: You do realize that these ethnic based clubs are subject to the same canadian quota restriction (and all have generally been developing kids for Canada)? The ethnic tags generally just indicate the history (and the historic fan base), ownership/management and maybe a preferred scouting area. Also theirs a whole ton of ethnic teams world wide (ever wonder why River Plate isn't called Rio de la Plata?), it's hardly 'bush league'. Some of these clubs are the real survivors of canadian football, and as long as they can compete, I could care less if they have an ethnic tag or not. (btw, a couple of the what ?5? overtly ethnic team names have changed to regions anyways sooooo...) It honestly seems like a pretty fickle reason to judge the football because they have ethnic teams, just check out a couple matches.

Hi Juby.

"It honestly seems like a pretty fickle reason to judge the football because they have ethnic teams, just check out a couple matches"

It's not "fickle", it's a result of the fact that I think ethnic tribalism has no place in sport. My opposition to tribalism in soccer is anything but fickle: I have been critical of it for decades.

"You do realize that these ethnic based clubs are subject to the same canadian quota restriction"

Irrelevant. I don't think that ethnic tribalism has any place in Canadian sport, and the names and identities of Canadian sports organisations. The only "national" identity that Canadian sports teams should have is "Canadian".

"The ethnic tags generally just indicate the history"

Yes, that the people involved place a higher priority on tribalism and clinging to where their parents came from than on sport. Ethnic labels belong in recipe books and dancing classes. They have no place in the names, identities, or cultures of Canadian sporting organisations.

"ever wonder why River Plate isn't called Rio de la Plata?)"

I know the histories of most of the world's major clubs because I love history, football, and the uniforms and insignia used in sport; so no, I don't wonder about that, I found out about it long ago. River are my "team" in Argentina (one of the few "big" clubs I like, though having been relegated for the first time this year I actually like them a little more - just not some of their fans!). I find it unfortunate that they don't call themselves Rio Plata, just like I find "The Strongest" and "Club Blooming" to be inappropriate names for clubs in Bolivia; and Sporting Kansas City, Real Salt Lake, and FC Edmonton to be dumb names for teams in English speaking societies. This is Canada, and no matter what your heritage is, one thing we all share is that we talk to each other in English (and French).

"it's hardly 'bush league'"

Not in big leagues like Argentina, or for big clubs like River Plate. It is in Canada, in 2011, which is what we are discussing.

"I could care less if they have an ethnic tag or not."

That's nice. I can't speak for you, and wouldn't presume to. I can only speak for me, and those who share my opinion. So that's what I do.

"overtly ethnic team names have changed to regions anyways"

Yes, and it's a positive change. When they are all changed, then that will finally eliminate one of the (easiest to remove) obstacles to growth of Canadian soccer.

"ust check out a couple matches"

I live in British Columbia, which should be apparent from my discussion of the PCSL and lacrosse, junior hockey, and junior football in British Columbia. Part of why I no longer watch the PCSL is because they still have one ethnic club and one religious club in their ranks. If they ever decide that they are more interested in soccer than these other causes I'm sure I will go back to following them.

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Hi Juby.

"It honestly seems like a pretty fickle reason to judge the football because they have ethnic teams, just check out a couple matches"

It's not "fickle", it's a result of the fact that I think ethnic tribalism has no place in sport. My opposition to tribalism in soccer is anything but fickle: I have been critical of it for decades.

"You do realize that these ethnic based clubs are subject to the same canadian quota restriction"

Irrelevant. I don't think that ethnic tribalism has any place in Canadian sport, and the names and identities of Canadian sports organisations. The only "national" identity that Canadian sports teams should have is "Canadian".

"The ethnic tags generally just indicate the history"

Yes, that the people involved place a higher priority on tribalism and clinging to where their parents came from than on sport. Ethnic labels belong in recipe books and dancing classes. They have no place in the names, identities, or cultures of Canadian sporting organisations.

"ever wonder why River Plate isn't called Rio de la Plata?)"

I know the histories of most of the world's major clubs because I love history, football, and the uniforms and insignia used in sport; so no, I don't wonder about that, I found out about it long ago. River are my "team" in Argentina (one of the few "big" clubs I like, though having been relegated for the first time this year I actually like them a little more - just not some of their fans!). I find it unfortunate that they don't call themselves Rio Plata, just like I find "The Strongest" and "Club Blooming" to be inappropriate names for clubs in Bolivia; and Sporting Kansas City, Real Salt Lake, and FC Edmonton to be dumb names for teams in English speaking societies. This is Canada, and no matter what your heritage is, one thing we all share is that we talk to each other in English (and French).

"it's hardly 'bush league'"

Not in big leagues like Argentina, or for big clubs like River Plate. It is in Canada, in 2011, which is what we are discussing.

"I could care less if they have an ethnic tag or not."

That's nice. I can't speak for you, and wouldn't presume to. I can only speak for me, and those who share my opinion. So that's what I do.

"overtly ethnic team names have changed to regions anyways"

Yes, and it's a positive change. When they are all changed, then that will finally eliminate one of the (easiest to remove) obstacles to growth of Canadian soccer.

"ust check out a couple matches"

I live in British Columbia, which should be apparent from my discussion of the PCSL and lacrosse, junior hockey, and junior football in British Columbia. Part of why I no longer watch the PCSL is because they still have one ethnic club and one religious club in their ranks. If they ever decide that they are more interested in soccer than these other causes I'm sure I will go back to following them.

Judging soccer and comparing these clubs to ethnic tribalism is just silly. These points are a complete over reaction, and your talk of the south american clubs is just bizarre. These south americans clubs are named that way because they were founded by english immigrants who became a vibrant part of their new countries culture (through their football club), you don't go around peeing on history out of overly rigid beliefs you have.

Seriously, you need to learn a few things about what your talking about: 'Ethnic tribalism' doesn't really exist in the CSL, it just reflects the founders, some of the management, the original supporters group, and a hint at their scouting knowledge. If you look closely you'll notice that Toronto Croatia and the Serbian White Eagles both have Serbs, Croats and Bosnians on their roster (not to mention any other type of canadians).

What we have here is a nice story of a few local ethnic communities successfully maintaining (not so easy in canada) a few soccer teams for their local canadian communities and then having you come and applying your politics to a game of soccer. This isn't crvena zvezda, these are just some families that founded a football club so they could watch a good game, your literally seeing politics and tension where it doesn't exist, like 'serbian' is a buzz word, it's not even like their called Фудбалски клуб Српски бели орлови or anything, your just peeing in the lemonade.

And the matches are in the the other men's league forum btw

edit: the north york astro's would literally have to start blatantly espousing fascist propaghanda or commit serious crimes or somehow not be apart of canadian development (despite argentinian roots their a very canadian team roster wise) for me to start cheering against the hometown team (Maybe I should take the league table into account if I'm moving).

Edited by Juby

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(...)Irrelevant. I don't think that ethnic tribalism has any place in Canadian sport, and the names and identities of Canadian sports organisations. The only "national" identity that Canadian sports teams should have is "Canadian".

(...)

By this logic, all clubs should have ethnically, religiously, and politically neutral names in both official languages. Sorry, but "Club de Soccer Ville London City Soccer Club" sounds ridiculous. I would be much more alarmed and affronted by a league that goes around kicking out legitimate clubs because of community affiliation and naming rights. It's not as though this is some "keep the blood pure" movement, it's a bunch of lower-tier soccer teams sponsored by local cultural centres. I don't find that threatening to my Canada.

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Seathanaich, maybe you didn't get the memo, but there is no such thing as "canadian identity"

You do realize were talking about 2.5 teams (roma's not a country so I said .5) in a league of 14 and not the other way around right? No one said we had 'no identity' but you, and scaling up the rhetoric only confuses the fact that you guys are talking about changing or ditching a few teams/leagues because there's a couple historied ethnic clubs (like your cornered??? only 11 teams you can relate too???). I mean seriously, moaning about the most canadian decent league we have and your acting like 'woe is me, I can't stop thinking about ethnicity and it's all their fault'.

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You do realize were talking about 2.5 teams (roma's not a country so I said .5) in a league of 14 and not the other way around right? No one said we had 'no identity' but you, and scaling up the rhetoric only confuses the fact that you guys are talking about changing or ditching a few teams/leagues because there's a couple historied ethnic clubs (like your cornered??? only 11 teams you can relate too???). I mean seriously, moaning about the most canadian decent league we have and your acting like 'woe is me, I can't stop thinking about ethnicity and it's all their fault'.

I personally find it rich that the Canadian identity is considered inclusive here. I mean, if you look at our history we haven't exaclty been a place for ethnicities to come together.

I wonder if people would be so open to the Canadian identity being repped by clubs if it was the part of our identity that placed head taxes on Chinese immigrants, or turned away countless Jews during the second worldwar...I don't know that the people decrying ethnic clubs would react well to a club called "Canadian Residential Schoolers FC".

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Wow, it's nice to see that a board dedicated to supporting the national team is so clearly offended by the idea of a Canadian identity.

And speaking of being offensive...

I don't know that the people decrying ethnic clubs would react well to a club called "Canadian Residential Schoolers FC".

WTF kind of bull**** comment is that? That is offensive is so many ways you should be ashamed that you wrote it.

I personally find it rich that the Canadian identity is considered inclusive here. I mean, if you look at our history we haven't exaclty been a place for ethnicities to come together.

I wonder if people would be so open to the Canadian identity being repped by clubs if it was the part of our identity that placed head taxes on Chinese immigrants, or turned away countless Jews during the second worldwar...

Of course our identity is inclusive AND it includes some horrific mistakes in our history. Here is the thing, we teach our children that these events were morally wrong. We try, however slowly and painfully to make our country a better place.

If you want to overtly support racism and segregation in soccer then by all means keep supporting Ethnic Identity FC. It may be an inclusive, racially integrated club but for the outside observer, or should I say potential supporter or sponsor all they see is a tribal identity that either includes them or not. If the club truly represents a community and not just those sharing a specific heritage it should have no problem competing under an inclusive identity.

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If you want to overtly support racism and segregation in soccer then by all means keep supporting Ethnic Identity FC. It may be an inclusive, racially integrated club but for the outside observer, or should I say potential supporter or sponsor all they see is a tribal identity that either includes them or not. If the club truly represents a community and not just those sharing a specific heritage it should have no problem competing under an inclusive identity.

ummm, how would you like it if you had done a good job with your club, and then some snot nosed fans who've never even seen you play (or paid dime one) started trying to rewrite your team history?

For anyone who know's, theirs nothing racist or exclusive about SWE or TC. But if people are going to assume that, it makes them ignorant is all (people who have huge opinions on things they don't know about), it's not a point to say 'I know it's this way but it looks that way, so I'm gonna act like a ass'.

Not everyone finds ethnic pride offensive (I only do when people act like it's supercede's their canadianness), should they really rebrand the club they put all the work into because YOU (someone who did nothing) thinks the word 'serbian' is too riske? Don't condemn hard working people over your misconceptions. The fact is they are perfectly inclusive, non-serbs cheer for them, and therefore all these complaints are just flat out incorrect, but your defence is that 'it seemed the way you described it before you found out the truth', you know chocolate looks like **** before you try it? Doesn't mean it is ****, but if you refuse to try it, your probably shallow and are ignorant.

If you want to overtly support racism and segregation in soccer then by all means keep supporting Ethnic Identity FC.

I mean seriously, you don't see here how your panties are in a knot? How you've called someone racist in a silly over reaction. You guys realize someone being proud of their ethnicity doesn't mean their the extreme of nationalism (nor does it affect you in relation to canada, no matter how people pretend otherwise), that's just a childish and illogical argueing tactic.

Edited by Juby

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Judging soccer and comparing these clubs to ethnic tribalism is just silly. These points are a complete over reaction, and your talk of the south american clubs is just bizarre. These south americans clubs are named that way because they were founded by english immigrants who became a vibrant part of their new countries culture (through their football club), you don't go around peeing on history out of overly rigid beliefs you have.

Seriously, you need to learn a few things about what your talking about: 'Ethnic tribalism' doesn't really exist in the CSL, it just reflects the founders, some of the management, the original supporters group, and a hint at their scouting knowledge. If you look closely you'll notice that Toronto Croatia and the Serbian White Eagles both have Serbs, Croats and Bosnians on their roster (not to mention any other type of canadians).

What we have here is a nice story of a few local ethnic communities successfully maintaining (not so easy in canada) a few soccer teams for their local canadian communities and then having you come and applying your politics to a game of soccer.

"Judging soccer and comparing these clubs to ethnic tribalism is just silly."

It is was, you'd be able to support your opinion with some sort of evidence. Having teams in Canadian sport called "Toronto Croatia" is ethnic tribalism, whether you want to deny it or not. In fact, denying it is ludicrous, but that's the calibre of the arguments used by people who support it.

"your talk of the south american clubs is just bizarre."

Apparently you think that any opinion you disagree with is "bizarre". To quote from The Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it means". Thinking that organisations in Spanish-speaking societies should have Spanish names isn't "bizarre", it's an opinion. Instead of demonising people you disagree with, and name-calling, you will be much more likely to change opinions if you form a coherent argument.

"Seriously, you need to learn a few things about what your talking about"

I feel that way every time I read a post from someone who defends ethnic tribalism in Canadian soccer.

"What we have here is a nice story of a few local ethnic communities successfully maintaining (not so easy in canada) a few soccer teams"

A minute ago you were denying the existence of ethnic tribalism. Now your saying it's a happy story. Make up your mind.

Edited by seathanaich
grammar correction

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By this logic, all clubs should have ethnically, religiously, and politically neutral names in both official languages. Sorry, but "Club de Soccer Ville London City Soccer Club" sounds ridiculous. I would be much more alarmed and affronted by a league that goes around kicking out legitimate clubs because of community affiliation and naming rights. It's not as though this is some "keep the blood pure" movement, it's a bunch of lower-tier soccer teams sponsored by local cultural centres. I don't find that threatening to my Canada.

"By this logic"

No, that's not "by my logic". "Club de Soccer Ville London City Soccer Club" is your creation, not mine. Your example is an absurdist, absolutist claim made by someone who wants to create a Straw Man, rather than address a point I have made. I put French in brackets because I would expect people in Trois-Rivieres to use the French language. This should be obvious to anyone actually trying to have a coherent, rational, and adult conversation.

Edited by seathanaich

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Wow, it's nice to see that a board dedicated to supporting the national team is so clearly offended by the idea of a Canadian identity.

Of course our identity is inclusive AND it includes some horrific mistakes in our history. Here is the thing, we teach our children that these events were morally wrong. We try, however slowly and painfully to make our country a better place.

If you want to overtly support racism and segregation in soccer then by all means keep supporting Ethnic Identity FC. It may be an inclusive, racially integrated club but for the outside observer, or should I say potential supporter or sponsor all they see is a tribal identity that either includes them or not. If the club truly represents a community and not just those sharing a specific heritage it should have no problem competing under an inclusive identity.

Brilliant, and correct as usual.

Of course there is a Canadian identity. It includes the Edmonton Oilers, and the Montreal Alouttes, and the Vancouver Whitecaps. To hear these tribalist apologists, you'd think that coming up with those club names and identities was somehow a difficult thing to do, despite the fact that most Canadian soccer clubs, and every team in every sport other than soccer, manages to do it fairly easily. It's only in soccer that people argue in favour of the perpetuation of pointless tribalism.

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ummm, how would you like it if you had done a good job with your club, and then some snot nosed fans who've never even seen you play (or paid dime one) started trying to rewrite your team history?

For anyone who know's, theirs nothing racist or exclusive about SWE or TC. But if people are going to assume that, it makes them ignorant is all (people who have huge opinions on things they don't know about), it's not a point to say 'I know it's this way but it looks that way, so I'm gonna act like a ass'.

Not everyone finds ethnic pride offensive (I only do when people act like it's supercede's their canadianness), should they really rebrand the club they put all the work into because YOU (someone who did nothing) thinks the word 'serbian' is too riske? Don't condemn hard working people over your misconceptions. The fact is they are perfectly inclusive, non-serbs cheer for them, and therefore all these complaints are just flat out incorrect, but your defence is that 'it seemed the way you described it before you found out the truth', you know chocolate looks like **** before you try it? Doesn't mean it is ****, but if you refuse to try it, your probably shallow and are ignorant.

I mean seriously, you don't see here how your panties are in a knot? How you've called someone racist in a silly over reaction. You guys realize someone being proud of their ethnicity doesn't mean their the extreme of nationalism (nor does it affect you in relation to canada, no matter how people pretend otherwise), that's just a childish and illogical argueing tactic.

You're doing the same thing to Ted you did to me. Instead of name-calling (snot-nosed, etc) and hyperbolic emotion, address the points he has raised. Your post is one long denial, evasion, and attempt to move the goal-posts of the discussion. If you can't address Ted's points about what a club name conveys to potential fans, or don't understand the fact that a tribal label is by nature a non-inclusive moniker, then you are not going to be able to have a rational conversation about the topic.

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"Judging soccer and comparing these clubs to ethnic tribalism is just silly."

It is was, you'd be able to support your opinion with some sort of evidence. Having teams in Canadian sport called "Toronto Croatia" is ethnic tribalism, whether you want to deny it or not. In fact, denying it is ludicrous, but that's the calibre of the arguments used by people who support it.

"your talk of the south american clubs is just bizarre."

Apparently you think that any opinion you disagree with is "bizarre". To quote from The Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it means". Thinking that organisations in Spanish-speaking societies should have Spanish names isn't "bizarre", it's an opinion. Instead of demonising people you disagree with, and name-calling, you will be much more likely to change opinions if you form a coherent argument.

"Seriously, you need to learn a few things about what your talking about"

I feel that way every time I read a post from someone who defends ethnic tribalism in Canadian soccer.

"What we have here is a nice story of a few local ethnic communities successfully maintaining (not so easy in canada) a few soccer teams"

A minute ago you were denying the existence of ethnic tribalism. Now your saying it's a happy story. Make up your mind.

A) It is silly because like I said, if it really were ethnic tribalism and not just a nice canadian story then their wouldn't be any serbs on toronto croatia, and their would be ethnic violence when they played the serbian white eagles. Your making a battle stand on racism against a minor show of ethnicty (at a certain point your just a wanker if you get too pushy in trying to eliminate things that are different, it's not like their isn't 11 non ethnic teams for you to cheer for but you act like some fun in the serbian-canadian community is offensive? Your just being a bit of zealot and taking down some okay people cause your overthinking something. It's just soccer)

B) Your talk of south american clubs is bizarre because their not offended by it. It's apart of their (like our) immigrant history...I was perfectly coherant, you just missed that I guess, you don't think it's bizarre that argentinians aren't offended by river plate's name but you are?

C) You need to learn about the csl before you start making accusations such as racism and ethnic tribalism, which in this instance is grossly incorrect.

D) that's not a contridiction bud... A few serbs or a few croats getting together is not ethnic tribalism and could very well be a happy story. Just because a group of people are proud to be croatian or whatever does not mean their bigoted or un-canadian or anything. Your just assuming that if your proud of your ethnicity your automatically the other extreme, it's bad logic, it's like if someone assumed people were WASTED everytime anyone had a beer, their's a lot in between sober and wasted.

Brilliant, and correct as usual.

Of course there is a Canadian identity. It includes the Edmonton Oilers, and the Montreal Alouttes, and the Vancouver Whitecaps. To hear these tribalist apologists, you'd think that coming up with those club names and identities was somehow a difficult thing to do, despite the fact that most Canadian soccer clubs, and every team in every sport other than soccer, manages to do it fairly easily. It's only in soccer that people argue in favour of the perpetuation of pointless tribalism.

the serbian white eagles are apart of canadian culture, were an immigrant culture, you don't find the english name 'serbian white eagles' pretty mixed in? If it was ethnic tribalism it wouldn't be in english on the crest.

Edited by Juby

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You're doing the same thing to Ted you did to me. Instead of name-calling (snot-nosed, etc) and hyperbolic emotion, address the points he has raised. Your post is one long denial, evasion, and attempt to move the goal-posts of the discussion. If you can't address Ted's points about what a club name conveys to potential fans, or don't understand the fact that a tribal label is by nature a non-inclusive moniker, then you are not going to be able to have a rational conversation about the topic.

I think you need to reread that because I made perfectly fine points, I actually did get a little wordy trying to avoid degenerating this arguement but honestly I don't care anymore. Your attempts to STAMP out displays of ethnicity like their automatically dangerous to a 'free' society is well...fascist, it's one thing to cheer for someone else based on that, it's quite another to make over the top allegations to try and eliminate other people's fun. The Serbian White Eagles are not holding you or anyone else back (their developing talent for canada, pretty much just canada), your just letting something bother you way too much.

Why don't you guys go around the internet and find some real racism to tell off, theirs plenty out their that's far far far worse then these two canadian clubs.

Edited by Juby

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You need to learn about the csl before you start making accusations such as racism and ethnic tribalism, which in this instance is grossly incorrect.

Hmm, let us see what he got incorrect.

He said that ethnic-based team identities can be perceived as racist and non-inclusive and that the CSL and PCSL have such teams.

Yes and yes. Clearly he was correct despite the many attempts above to twist his words and assign meaning that is clearly not intended.

He said that teams without exclusionary identities are more likely to appeal to a wider group of potential fans and sponsors. No one is accusing the teams of actually being racist or somehow evil so climb down off your high horse please.

In the particular instance why could a team not simply take up the identity as "Eagles"? It both keeps some of the heritage connection but removes the exclusionary language?

That is all we are asking them to do. It isn't rocket science or an indictment of anyone's heritage and would go a long way towards making the league more attractive to the media, sponsors and spectators.

Arguing to keep something you know to be perceived as racist seems suspect when it has no real benefit. Show an over-reaching benefit to keeping a perceived racist identity or stop wasting time on this issue. Will the players play better if they are "Serbian White Eagles" instead of "Toronto Eagles" (or wherever)? I think not. Will more fans and sponsors support a community team than an ethnically-exclusive one? I think so.

So, give us an actual, logical reason why we must keep these identities.

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Hmm, let us see what he got incorrect.

He said that ethnic-based team identities can be perceived as racist and non-inclusive and that the CSL and PCSL have such teams.

Yes and yes. Clearly he was correct despite the many attempts above to twist his words and assign meaning that is clearly not intended.

He said that teams without exclusionary identities are more likely to appeal to a wider group of potential fans and sponsors. No one is accusing the teams of actually being racist or somehow evil so climb down off your high horse please.

In the particular instance why could a team not simply take up the identity as "Eagles"? It both keeps some of the heritage connection but removes the exclusionary language?

That is all we are asking them to do. It isn't rocket science or an indictment of anyone's heritage and would go a long way towards making the league more attractive to the media, sponsors and spectators.

Arguing to keep something you know to be perceived as racist seems suspect when it has no real benefit. Show an over-reaching benefit to keeping a perceived racist identity or stop wasting time on this issue. Will the players play better if they are "Serbian White Eagles" instead of "Toronto Eagles" (or wherever)? I think not. Will more fans and sponsors support a community team than an ethnically-exclusive one? I think so.

So, give us an actual, logical reason why we must keep these identities.

A) if it's not racist, saying it's wrong cause it's 'seems' that way is just insulting to the people doing nothing wrong, you can't use a misconception as a condemnation (if you could then I say the name Voyageurs looks too much like Voyeurs and that someone has to rename the 'DP' signings)

B)It's their club, their history, their choice, they can do with it what they will and should be allowed to compete as high as they can. You said earlier "If you want to overtly support racism and segregation in soccer then by all means keep supporting Ethnic Identity FC." but now your saying things like 'appears that way', maybe they wouldn't appear that way if you guys didn't make over the top accusations already?

C) I am argueing for their right to run their club as they see fit (especially considering, percieved bull**** aside, they've done nothing wrong or racist). Me and you have no right to dictate to them unless they actually cross the line (ie. real ethnic tribalism). Your 'perceptions' of them are illogical, like I said earlier, just because they have ethnic pride, doesn't mean they have ethnic (or canadian) hate, you've pidgeonholed them into the opposite extreme because their not comfortably in your camp.

D) Read my arguements, they are very logical, why don't you point out where their illogical instead of just pretending they must be cause your frustrated. And for some actual benefit to us: hmmm, you mean besides the coming and going of countless canadian teams that they have been able to consistently help develop canadian talent? How many of their players do you suppose have played for Beli Orlovi (white eagles haha) and how many do you suppose have put on a Canada jersey hmmm?

you don't make big claims and decision based on appearances if you know don't reflect truth. It would be one thing to tell a friend they dress stupid, it's another thing entirely to refuse to talk to them and say things you know are untrue because they exercised their right to dress however-tf they want.

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Juby, you have now officially entered Towrad territory. You make no logical arguments and consistently twist words and ignore reasonable discourse.

Since you cannot show one logical, rational benefit to the development of professional soccer in Canada by the continued use of ethnic team identities we are done.

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Wow, it's nice to see that a board dedicated to supporting the national team is so clearly offended by the idea of a Canadian identity.

And speaking of being offensive...

WTF kind of bull**** comment is that? That is offensive is so many ways you should be ashamed that you wrote it.

That was kind of the point. If somebody actually started a club like that you'd be livid, but it would be a reflection of Canadian history, which is what's being asked for, isn't it?

There are people in this country who absolutely loved those parts of our history. Don't they have an identity that is Canadian?

What is the Canadian identity?

Because from where I sit, living in a free country, with free people, means that we don't get to tell people they can't associate under certain names or be proud of their history. If somebody created such a club as "Residential Schoolers FC" there would be a legitimate outcry, just like if there were clubs called "Toronto Ustace" or "Serbian Black Hands" there would be a legitimate point being made here. But that isn't the case.

These are CSL clubs sponsored by cultural clubs, and those cultural clubs get to name them. In New Brunswick, in the new McCain premiere league, there's a club called "Fredericton Picaroons". It's named after the beer company that sponsors them. Isn't this uninclusive for those who don't like alcohol?

The argument against ethnic clubs here is a weak one. The truth is, if you really want them to be out of Canadian soccer, you have two options;

1) Start your own clubs and beat them in competition over and over again until they just get tired of it and quit.

2) Get over it because they're good at what they're doing and they aren't going anywhere.

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Juby, you have now officially entered Towrad territory. You make no logical arguments and consistently twist words and ignore reasonable discourse.

Since you cannot show one logical, rational benefit to the development of professional soccer in Canada by the continued use of ethnic team identities we are done.

hahaha, I was very logical, if I wasn't, you would have read something, laughed or scoffed and quoted me and shown how I was illogical. But once again, there's an unbacked statement claiming I have no backing.

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If somebody actually started a club like that you'd be livid, but it would be a reflection of Canadian history, which is what's being asked for, isn't it?

No, it is not.

What we are talking about is what is an acceptable name for a professional club in a professional league. Marketing a league and the teams therein requires team identities or brands that are going to attract sponsorships and supporters in sufficient numbers to make it a viable operation.

No one is trying to take away the Sunday beer league or recreational teams run by community associations. That is not on the agenda here.

You would not name a professional team Boogers because it would offend too many people even if a certain small chunk of people found it hilarious. For the same reason you would not name a professional soccer team "Sons of Scotland". Too many people would feel excluded to be successful.

Believe me I am proud of our heritage but even our local team may have gone to far. We have lots of Scottish connections in Victoria: founded by Governor Douglas, one of our municipalities is called the Highlands, our militia regiment is the Canadian Scottish and even our police band is pipes and drums. That said, I have still heard people say they will not support the Victoria Highlanders because they are not Scottish. Even something like that is considered to be exclusionary.

These are indeed valid reasons to exclude these types of identities from professional leagues and try as I might in the pages before this one, I have found no one has shown any compelling reason why we should allow them. Lots of talk about "freedom" and "history" but not one solid, logical fact or reasonable argument that these identities will contribute anything positive to a professional league.

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No, it is not.

What we are talking about is what is an acceptable name for a professional club in a professional league. Marketing a league and the teams therein requires team identities or brands that are going to attract sponsorships and supporters in sufficient numbers to make it a viable operation.

No one is trying to take away the Sunday beer league or recreational teams run by community associations. That is not on the agenda here.

You would not name a professional team Boogers because it would offend too many people even if a certain small chunk of people found it hilarious. For the same reason you would not name a professional soccer team "Sons of Scotland". Too many people would feel excluded to be successful.

Believe me I am proud of our heritage but even our local team may have gone to far. We have lots of Scottish connections in Victoria: founded by Governor Douglas, one of our municipalities is called the Highlands, our militia regiment is the Canadian Scottish and even our police band is pipes and drums. That said, I have still heard people say they will not support the Victoria Highlanders because they are not Scottish. Even something like that is considered to be exclusionary.

These are indeed valid reasons to exclude these types of identities from professional leagues and try as I might in the pages before this one, I have found no one has shown any compelling reason why we should allow them. Lots of talk about "freedom" and "history" but not one solid, logical fact or reasonable argument that these identities will contribute anything positive to a professional league.

I suppose it comes down to what you think a professional league should be. If there were a full pyramid in Canada, and the ethnic clubs were able to win their way to the first division, then I'd say they belon there. That said, giving them places in what is supposed to a Canadian professional league using the franchise system seems counter-productive. My impression from your arguments was that you were making the same point as seatanaich, that ethnic clubs have no place in any part of Canadian soccer. That is the point he has made in this thread and others, and that was what I was arguing against.

The CSL and PCSL are probably not going to be the foundation of any realistic approach to a national professional league in Canada. That will be a fresh start, with serious investors and a strong business model.

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A) It is silly because like I said, if it really were ethnic tribalism and not just a nice canadian story then their wouldn't be any serbs on toronto croatia, and their would be ethnic violence when they played the serbian white eagles. Your making a battle stand on racism against a minor show of ethnicty (at a certain point your just a wanker if you get too pushy in trying to eliminate things that are different, it's not like their isn't 11 non ethnic teams for you to cheer for but you act like some fun in the serbian-canadian community is offensive? Your just being a bit of zealot and taking down some okay people cause your overthinking something. It's just soccer)

B) Your talk of south american clubs is bizarre because their not offended by it. It's apart of their (like our) immigrant history...I was perfectly coherant, you just missed that I guess, you don't think it's bizarre that argentinians aren't offended by river plate's name but you are?

C) You need to learn about the csl before you start making accusations such as racism and ethnic tribalism, which in this instance is grossly incorrect.

D) that's not a contridiction bud... A few serbs or a few croats getting together is not ethnic tribalism and could very well be a happy story. Just because a group of people are proud to be croatian or whatever does not mean their bigoted or un-canadian or anything. Your just assuming that if your proud of your ethnicity your automatically the other extreme, it's bad logic, it's like if someone assumed people were WASTED everytime anyone had a beer, their's a lot in between sober and wasted.

the serbian white eagles are apart of canadian culture, were an immigrant culture, you don't find the english name 'serbian white eagles' pretty mixed in? If it was ethnic tribalism it wouldn't be in english on the crest.

"you don't think it's bizarre that argentinians aren't offended by river plate's name but you are"

I'm not offended by it. I tire of lame asses like you who can't have a discussion without making up Straw Man comments like this one. Claiming I'm "offended" is just your way of being unable to handle the fact that people have different opinions on things. Note that I don't feel any need to claim you are "offended" by anything when I make my arguments.

Sorry, but this is just one of many small examples of why you are incapable of having a coherent debate. Ted has pointed out others. That being the case, further discussion is a waste of my time, and yours. Bye.

Edited by seathanaich

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"you don't think it's bizarre that argentinians aren't offended by river plate's name but you are"

I'm not offended by it. I tire of lame asses like you who can't have a discussion without making up Straw Man comments like this one. Claiming I'm "offended" is just your way of being unable to handle the fact that people have different opinions on things. Note that I don't feel any need to claim you are "offended" by anything when I make my arguments.

Sorry, but this is just one of many small examples of why you are incapable of having a coherent debate. Ted has pointed out others. That being the case, further discussion is a waste of my time, and yours. Bye.

I get sick of people pretending I'm full of it when I make a point, you were talking about how bush league 'ethnic' teams were, I pointed out some great 'ethnic' teams worldwide, I guess your a river fan and never thought about it cause you suddenly acted like ethnic teams aren't normal here, and wrong there, and now your acting like, 'pfft, you can't debate'.

Logic is not a stickman arguement, stickman arguements are based on hypotheticals and perfect world theories, and your the one trying to apply your ideologies to some soccer leagues (were taking what we can get). Whenever I hear people moaning about ethnic teams (especially these ethnic teams, their not doing anything wrong) I just think: apparently beggars can be choosers.

Edited by Juby

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