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What should we do with the Voyageurs forum?

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Ultimately, there needs to be a goal for this forum/site. Right now it's convoluted and seems like it's a one-man show @socceronly trying to figure it out by tasking himself with obtaining feedback and ideas. As anyone knows, that has its limitations and will inadvertently lead us back to this very same discussion.

Going into a new era, I feel there's an opportunity to change things massively for the voyageurs and future supporters- the forum is just a small piece to the presentation and representation of the whole puzzle. 

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10 hours ago, Ansem said:

If banning some people and deleting posts is for the good of the website, so be it. Hell, you can give me warnings too if I get out of line. I understand that you'd give me an explanation as to why I'm being sanctioned and that this community is bigger than myself or people looking for a mic because they're bored. You need to keep that in mind.

There can't be true freedom without rules

Absolutely, well-said Ansem.  

No two people agree on everything, but all of us are supposedly here with one goal in mind:  to improve the state of the game in this country.  People who are on here and attack people while rarely contributing anything of value are keeping others from saying anything.  

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1 hour ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

I think this forum should go to a place where it's strictly and only discussions and debates about the following:

Mens National Team, Womens National Team, Youth National Teams, The Voyaguers Cup (only place to talk club soccer/ have a banter), and Players (professional Canadian players).

That means getting rid of the following sub-forums:

CanPL (we've all done our job in getting this started, supporter forums will begin to arise and be the main source for specific club talk)MLS, NASL, World Soccer, FIFA World Cup type subforums.

In doing so to me, it would save bandwidth(cost) and the need for multiple moderators(expected time). 

I also think we should introduce a tier member type level, which would consist of welcome like packages (t shirt or scarves) and regulate your ability to post based on your tier. 

 

Some ideas...

IMO: NASL for sure should be gone, but CPL and MLS should stick (as league politics do matter to the Canadian game). World Soccer should stay as well as it's a more social less serious forum but CONCACAF news and World Cup shit should merge into it.

Final Forums
-CanMNT
-CanWMT
-CPL and Canadian Leagues
-MLS and US Leagues
-CONCACAF and World Soccer
-Non-Soccer Stuff

I mentioned it before but setting limits to threads would help control over flow like the original and current CPL threads and deleting useless and low involvement threads (if troll or under 5 replies).

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In 1974, an American criminologist, Martinson, studied every single program that had been implemented in order to reduce crime and treat repeat offenders.  His now very famous study came to be called "Nothing Works", because according to the data, nothing works. 

We can try to moderate, but people on the internet will be people on the internet.  Nothing works.

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I'm very much a fan on moderation. I was a member of HFboards (a hockey forum) for a very long time and that was a huge ego system. Their solution from the mass mess it could have been was tailored moderation in each section. Moderators who were passionate about certain areas really made the forum a better place.

Also one of the things that will get lost as this grows is posters because less of people and more user names. I don't actually know any of you personally but I know many of you from social. Also my social posts have been posted on here by others (well just one..) and I like having people know who I am.

Happy to assist with moderation.

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I somehow had moderating powers for a week or two a few years ago. Quite enjoyed it. I'm a dad of two kids now so I'm getting good at giving half-hearted, keeping the peace type advice.

I have to say that people need to lighten up a bit and get a thicker skin. If you stopped being a Voyageur because of Robert, you weren't meant to be. Part of the experience of being a V is taking a long car ride with a guy you thought you hated only to learn that he's a blast. The internet is not real. Don't let it get you down.

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How do mods get chosen? And who are the current mods on the MNT forum?

Anyway, I wonder if we are maybe overreacting just a little bit? Compared to other forums I frequent, like Hockey's HFBoards, this place is a picture of friendliness and tranquility haha. Yes Tg11 has been ruffling feathers (including my own) with their inane, useless, non-stop banter, but I have learned to ignore them. I got a lot of respect for a lot of the posters here, and I still think for the most part the post quality and information available here is by far the best from a CMNT perspective.

 

 

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14 hours ago, matty said:

i think moderation is needed. like there is a thread were the rwandan genocide is denied and that user still actively posts and another who was trying to dox someone and he's also still here. that's pretty fucking weird.

i think things like circle jerks and minor trolls are fine but the spamming, excessive number of troll activities, political conspiracy theories (outside of the off topic forum) and straight up hate speech should get either a short term suspension to full banning (for hate speech and doxing). doing that would make these forums more welcoming to newcomers.

deleting and locking thread is also fine. you have no commitment to anyone here for free speech.

 

12 hours ago, matty said:

I think you have to set some high standards for banning (like denying the rwandan genocide or belittling the holocaust) and have tiers of suspension (like 2 day, 4 day, 10 days, ban) relating to trolling and spamming. I know you'll get complaints about free speech but it'll be from the same people who want BBTB and that annoying new guy banned so clearly they don't actually care about it.

You should also delete thread that just don't relate to the subject rather than force the site to be pure Canadian soccer stuff and lock threads for good when they reach say 100 pages and do temporary locks in major circumstances (eg. when Will Johnson was arrested) to make things easier to sort through and prevent 'troubling' comments (eg. trying to justify Johnson's actions).

I think it would be a good idea to ban nasty individuals who personally attack other posters by writing distorted versions of their views and then in a pretty amazing Godwin Law moment even try to associate their views with Holocaust denial. And for the record until you mentioned it here, any talk of Rwanda was confined to my politics thread in the Off Topic Discussion Forum where those with differing views were also free to express them. And to set the record straight, nowhere did I deny that mass killings took place, I am only stating that many of the killings were of Hutus by the US armed Tutsi RPF and that the massacres (and Hutu forces also killed Tutsis) were part of a successful US-British-Canadian plan to wrest control of Central Africa and its resources in particular those of neighbouring Congo from France. If anyone wants to read further about my views on Rwanda they can read them where they belonged in the Off Topic Thread before matty unfortunately raised them here for rather distasteful reasons.

You are also demanding an extremely high level of censorship which would pretty much kill the usefulness of the forum. I don't have time to look through the Will Johnson thread so I may have missed something but I don't recall anyone posting troubling comments justifying Johnson's actions. I think a few people may have said we shouldn't judge until we know the facts or see the evidence which is a valid point of view for someone accused of any crime especially one in which unlike the Larin video, we do not see what happened. 

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3 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I somehow had moderating powers for a week or two a few years ago. Quite enjoyed it. I'm a dad of two kids now so I'm getting good at giving half-hearted, keeping the peace type advice.

I have to say that people need to lighten up a bit and get a thicker skin. If you stopped being a Voyageur because of Robert, you weren't meant to be. Part of the experience of being a V is taking a long car ride with a guy you thought you hated only to learn that he's a blast. The internet is not real. Don't let it get you down.

Sorry, but I disagree with the bit above that's highlighted.  This isn't a playground, and people here shouldn't have to put up with childish antics.

However, you're right that this is just the internet.  When he had a go at me out of the blue, I just pressed the old ignore button, and "poof" the problem was solved.  There's one advantage of the internet over real life.  

If anyone is being bothered by him or anyone else, I highly recommend the ignore feature.  One click, and then carry on as you were.  No need for things to get heated.

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3 hours ago, Grizzly said:

 

I think it would be a good idea to ban nasty individuals who personally attack other posters by writing distorted versions of their views and then in a pretty amazing Godwin Law moment even try to associate their views with Holocaust denial. And for the record until you mentioned it here, any talk of Rwanda was confined to my politics thread in the Off Topic Discussion Forum where those with differing views were also free to express them. And to set the record straight, nowhere did I deny that mass killings took place, I am only stating that many of the killings were of Hutus by the US armed Tutsi RPF and that the massacres (and Hutu forces also killed Tutsis) were part of a successful US-British-Canadian plan to wrest control of Central Africa and its resources in particular those of neighbouring Congo from France. If anyone wants to read further about my views on Rwanda they can read them where they belonged in the Off Topic Thread before matty unfortunately raised them here for rather distasteful reasons.

You are also demanding an extremely high level of censorship which would pretty much kill the usefulness of the forum. I don't have time to look through the Will Johnson thread so I may have missed something but I don't recall anyone posting troubling comments justifying Johnson's actions. I think a few people may have said we shouldn't judge until we know the facts or see the evidence which is a valid point of view for someone accused of any crime especially one in which unlike the Larin video, we do not see what happened. 

Exhibit 1A of why moderating was so draining and an emotional slog day in and day out.

Also, get rid of the Off-Topic section.  No point in having it if you want to focus the forum.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Grizzly said:

 

I think it would be a good idea to ban nasty individuals who personally attack other posters by writing distorted versions of their views and then in a pretty amazing Godwin Law moment even try to associate their views with Holocaust denial. And for the record until you mentioned it here, any talk of Rwanda was confined to my politics thread in the Off Topic Discussion Forum where those with differing views were also free to express them. And to set the record straight, nowhere did I deny that mass killings took place, I am only stating that many of the killings were of Hutus by the US armed Tutsi RPF and that the massacres (and Hutu forces also killed Tutsis) were part of a successful US-British-Canadian plan to wrest control of Central Africa and its resources in particular those of neighbouring Congo from France. If anyone wants to read further about my views on Rwanda they can read them where they belonged in the Off Topic Thread before matty unfortunately raised them here for rather distasteful reasons.

You are also demanding an extremely high level of censorship which would pretty much kill the usefulness of the forum. I don't have time to look through the Will Johnson thread so I may have missed something but I don't recall anyone posting troubling comments justifying Johnson's actions. I think a few people may have said we shouldn't judge until we know the facts or see the evidence which is a valid point of view for someone accused of any crime especially one in which unlike the Larin video, we do not see what happened. 

It's a very basic level of censorship (like i think people who wanna ban circle jerkers, excessive posters and trolls are demanding a much higher degree) and I'm not getting into this shit with you. You literally say it wasn't a genocide so no it wasn't distasteful.

Edited by matty

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11 hours ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

Ultimately, there needs to be a goal for this forum/site. Right now it's convoluted and seems like it's a one-man show @socceronly trying to figure it out by tasking himself with obtaining feedback and ideas. As anyone knows, that has its limitations and will inadvertently lead us back to this very same discussion.

Going into a new era, I feel there's an opportunity to change things massively for the voyageurs and future supporters- the forum is just a small piece to the presentation and representation of the whole puzzle. 

A goal is written into the rough draft I have.  It's why it is more a set of principles than rules. 

As I said earlier, the Forum needs to be just a piece and take a back seat to better things.  Namely playing games. 

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2 hours ago, El Hombre said:

Exhibit 1A of why moderating was so draining and an emotional slog day in and day out.

Also, get rid of the Off-Topic section.  No point in having it if you want to focus the forum.

You are not helping the recruiting.

So, I'll share my experience.

Being a mod on the V's forum was a great teaching/learning experience for me. Since I've been a mod, I've found love, I now have a house, a young kid and my income has double. All of that wouldn't have been possible without my experience as a mod here. Be a mod, it will change your life.

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I also agree that if we are narrowing the focus of the forum (or "concentrating" it), it's best to remove the off-topic sub-forum as that is bound to be the most difficult section to moderate anyway and is, by definition, off-topic. To be honest, until reading about it in this thread I'd forgotten there was even an off-topic sub-forum.

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16 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

I also agree that if we are narrowing the focus of the forum (or "concentrating" it), it's best to remove the off-topic sub-forum as that is bound to be the most difficult section to moderate anyway and is, by definition, off-topic. To be honest, until reading about it in this thread I'd forgotten there was even an off-topic sub-forum.

I highly disagree, i think it would be one the the easiest to moderate because it's not that active. The second most recently active thread was posted in on June 18th and of the 7 threads that have been active since April, 4 have 5 or fewer replies and 2 have 0 replies.

The general thread isn't a problem unless you just want fewer forums. People like people on here and sometimes wanna share things that are not related to soccer, there is no harm in that.

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14 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

In 1974, an American criminologist, Martinson, studied every single program that had been implemented in order to reduce crime and treat repeat offenders.  His now very famous study came to be called "Nothing Works", because according to the data, nothing works. 

We can try to moderate, but people on the internet will be people on the internet.  Nothing works.

Interesting example, and I tend to agree about the applcability of its conclusion to forum behaviour.

But also instructive is the ultimate outcome of legal sanctions regardless of whether or not they actually prevent crime.  Isolating people from the community is still the approach that we collectively accept.  Even if it doesn't individually reduce the tendency towards  criminality, it does at least remove that negativity from the community.

For people on here who have been sanctioned repeatedly, a ban seems like an appropriate response.

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1 hour ago, matty said:

I highly disagree, i think it would be one the the easiest to moderate because it's not that active.

I'm not discussing the current state but rather a theoretical future state for the forum of what could be a much busier/active forum with more members given all of the new soccer fans that will come on board with more National team games, more club games, more V-Cup matches and the World Cup in 2026. Going forward, in a busier forward, that will be more difficult to moderate because of its imprecise subject matter.

In terms of current state, if its not a very active part of the forum that nobody really uses or cares about, then that's another reason to get rid of it IMO.

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Honestly I don't follow many forums - this and one other. The reason is most are crap, and hijacked. It's a credit to the majority of longtime posters here that this site has stayed high-level and incredibly informative. The go-to for MNT info, bar none. Disagreements are, for the most part, respectful. I can deal with the occasional jack ass, and while some of the newbies are a little annoying (lacking knowledge, but still rapid fire posting) they will learn or their attention span will be quickly exhausted.

In short, keep this site as is -- maybe delete some threads and posts but nothing to destroy the nature of discussion or send well informed and responsible posters away from thevoyageurs.com.

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22 minutes ago, BCM said:

Honestly I don't follow many forums - this and one other. The reason is most are crap, and hijacked. It's a credit to the majority of longtime posters here that this site has stayed high-level and incredibly informative. The go-to for MNT info, bar none. Disagreements are, for the most part, respectful. I can deal with the occasional jack ass, and while some of the newbies are a little annoying (lacking knowledge, but still rapid fire posting) they will learn or their attention span will be quickly exhausted.

In short, keep this site as is -- maybe delete some threads and posts but nothing to destroy the nature of discussion or send well informed and responsible posters away from thevoyageurs.com.

I agree with your points here.  Also, I agree that streamlining threads would help, such as with perhaps having a criteria for beginning individual player threads on the CMNT forum.

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I rarely post on this forum. I have been lurking for a few years now. I find the tone of the forum high falloutin and unwelcoming at best. and asshole at worst. 

 

Someone mentioned the mother of all canadians abroad thread. I checked out the last page (63) real quick. Two people, unnamed trialist and vince were insulting each other. To allow those posts to remain and the posters to be active on the board with that behaviour is astounding. Why anyone would think that is conducive to people wanting to participate is beyond me. Moderation is the only answer with respect to behaviour like that. Simple concepts of ban assholes should be at play. 

This Robert fellow that I have on my block list - him being allowed to post on this forum reduces the time I spend here. He should have been banned years ago. Again, moderation is the answer. 

Many of the posters who seem to carry themselves in high regard around here usually come across as condescending. It really makes discussion and participation difficult when you get made to feel like a dummy if you are not uber aware of what player is playing in the 5th level of the spanish u13 development league or whatever. Sorry, I can't really provide examples for this last point. tl:dr most of the 'good' posters here are condescending dicks

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21 hours ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

I think this forum should go to a place where it's strictly and only discussions and debates about the following:

Mens National Team, Womens National Team, Youth National Teams, The Voyaguers Cup (only place to talk club soccer/ have a banter), and Players (professional Canadian players).

That means getting rid of the following sub-forums:

CanPL (we've all done our job in getting this started, supporter forums will begin to arise and be the main source for specific club talk)MLS, NASL, World Soccer, FIFA World Cup type subforums.

In doing so to me, it would save bandwidth(cost) and the need for multiple moderators(expected time). 

I also think we should introduce a tier member type level, which would consist of welcome like packages (t shirt or scarves) and regulate your ability to post based on your tier. 

 

Some ideas...

For a log time, I have used these forums as a catch all for important Canadian soccer news. As an example, living in BC, we barely get any Montreal Impact coverage. Having a thread on their season allows me to stay abreast on their recent performances and get opinion from posters that I have come to know and respect. If club team forums were eliminated, I would lose that. I don't have the time or the patience to register for different forums for all of the professional teams. This has been my one stop shop. If the news is big enough, I know it will be talked about here.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, nazzer said:

I rarely post on this forum. I have been lurking for a few years now. I find the tone of the forum high falloutin and unwelcoming at best. and asshole at worst. 

 

Someone mentioned the mother of all canadians abroad thread. I checked out the last page (63) real quick. Two people, unnamed trialist and vince were insulting each other. To allow those posts to remain and the posters to be active on the board with that behaviour is astounding. Why anyone would think that is conducive to people wanting to participate is beyond me. Moderation is the only answer with respect to behaviour like that. Simple concepts of ban assholes should be at play. 

This Robert fellow that I have on my block list - him being allowed to post on this forum reduces the time I spend here. He should have been banned years ago. Again, moderation is the answer. 

Many of the posters who seem to carry themselves in high regard around here usually come across as condescending. It really makes discussion and participation difficult when you get made to feel like a dummy if you are not uber aware of what player is playing in the 5th level of the spanish u13 development league or whatever. Sorry, I can't really provide examples for this last point. tl:dr most of the 'good' posters here are condescending dicks

Since you refer to me I have to respond, because I think you are way out of line.

First, a bit of context: I have posted on Manny Aparicio religiously for about two years, week in, week out. I do this because other posters on this board want to know about Canadians Abroad in Spain, they way I want to know about players in Slovakia or Ireland.

I mention he was released by his club, and someone comes along suggesting he go to CPL.

And I responded that if he wasn't joking (because it is sort of a running joke here, "another for CPL" and the like) that the guy was not going to sit out an entire season waiting for CPL. And called the general CPL hype leading to such comments "silliness". I did not even say the guy was personally "silly", as I included the possibility he was posting tongue in cheek. 

And he got offended. 

Now all I will say is this. Any person who comes on this board making gratuitous dumb-ass posts about a player, showing fundamental disrespect for his career, and disrespecting a fellow Voyageur who has treated the player with respect and seriously for years,, probably deserves to be told off much stronger terms than that. 

If you think that sort of parry is worth banning, mine or the other guy's, then IMO you should not be on this board, because you are danger to it.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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I am of the "thicker skin" school and the "if it ain't broke..." school. This is a useful resource and a fun place for many people. Some people are not happy, I realize; well, some people will never be happy, and as we scroll up not so far to see, some people will be unhappy because they disagree or because valid statements are being made in a tone they don't like or any number of other factors where the cure would be far worse than the disease.

This is not to say that we should not have more moderation and a bit more cruelty. When you blow away a thread that isn't blatant shitposting, @socceronly, it stands out because it's so against precedent, the reason for it to happen must therefore have been extraordinary, and as it is kept opaque it must therefore be very interesting. That doesn't mean there's anybody arguing for "anything other than discount Cialis is valid." Ban Robert, for example.

But in general I lean laissez-faire and I don't think there's anything wrong with being a chatty Canadian soccer discussion forum filled with stuff that might bring the occasional blush to the occasional cheek. Clamping down on what's worked for the Voyageurs in hopes of going even more "mainstream" (and we're bringing nice tifo and thousands of fans to supporters' sections, and today's bad games are better than the great games of ten years ago, so I'm not sure why we're worried) is a strategy which, in the best case, tears the soul out of something we've all grown to love, as has happened to other supporters' groups I will decline to name out of politeness.

A clear code of conduct is not a bad idea, though there will always be a "and if everyone thinks you're a dick then these rules may be suspended at the moderators' leisure" clause.

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First off

Image result for don't panic

 

No one is smashing this thing with a hammer. 

People should be allowed to say what they want.   However, there is a bar and it was set too low.   We can't be compared to nazi's and straight up libelous content towards public people in soccer must be stopped and removed from the site.  I am legally responsible for it, me personally.  Before you answer I am not, I am.  There are many examples. 

I also believe, regardless of having no evidence for it, that the general attitude of the forum will improve with activity outside of it.   Having concrete things to talk about, like regular games will help steer the ship.

I personally lean towards Lord Bob's laissez-faire attitude.  I am weary of an overly sanitized mainstream family friendly affair.   I like our gritty little club, but is there also not some fiduciary duty towards the teams to bring something next level to the stadium now that we have the opportunity to do so?  How do we strike the balance?

We all agree on some level of increased moderation, consider that done.  Accept now there will be some mistakes and we will find our happy place by discussing it.

So let's take this talk to the next level about who we are and who we think we should be.

 

 

 

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