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Herdman new head coach

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4 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Well, to me Herdman has already lost half the team if he’s airing dirty laundry publicly.  Any good coach will tell you, that you keep all locker room stuff within the locker room and don’t try to force players hand.  I don’t blame some players too for turning there back on Canada.  As much as you want to play for your country, you must have belief in your FA first that they’re trying to inprove the situation.  When your FA has hired questionable people in the past, fired a decent coach like Zambrano, not scheduled friendlies when it should matter, you’re going to get disillusioned players wondering why make the trek for Canada.  You want something to believe in that things will be different and that starts at the top.  This is not the girls team that he thinks he can motivate them by teling the press other things.  The men have bigger egos and haven’t had a decent coach that they actually listened with glee since god knows when.

Yeah because by doing this you basically create in-fighting within your national team and in doing that you basically have players revolting against the coach (ie. France in 2010 with Domenech when he was their coach just as an example). Players turning their backs on Canada makes sense because in their eyes they think that if they are gonna play for this country that they are gonna want to play for a coach that believes in them or at the very least that they trust in and believe in. It is at least clear to me that right now at the moment most of the players don't believe in Herdman or what he is trying to sell which in term will create in fighting eventually unless Herdman decides to drop said players so then that way you avoid a France 2010 like situation. I too want Canada to schedule more friendlies but then again don't Canada have CONCACAF Nations League and the 2019 Gold Cup to focus on anyway? If they do then perhaps scheduling friendlies in that time frame might just work against Canada wouldn't you agree? Yes I too want things to be different too without question I think we all do but I mean Herdman he is at least trying to change things with what he's been given and what he has to work with as far as this MNT is not much. I mean yes the men have bigger egos but then again with the talent we already have and the talent that is breaking in or about to break into the MNT we should at the very least be able to compete but then again it all comes down to results.

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16 minutes ago, Tg11 said:

 

Then who would you suggest if you could drop Cav and Johnson?

Well I don't even know if they will be "dropped" as they both have had sporadic appearances over the last couple years so it's not exactly a given they're givens. 

Without including Cav I would call Larin, Ricketts and Jackson-Hamel at striker.

Without including Johnson I would call Hutchinson, Piette, Kaye, Osorio, Arfield, Davies, Hoilett, Millar and Chapman at midfield.

For what it's worth I would call Borjan, Leutwiler and Crepeau at keeper. 

And James, Henry, Adekugbe, De Jong, Jakovic, Aird, Petrasso and Vitoria at defence.

Not a bad looking 23 man roster.

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2 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Well I don't even know if they will be "dropped" as they both have had sporadic appearances over the last couple years so it's not exactly a given they're givens. 

Without including Cav I would call Larin, Ricketts and Jackson-Hamel at striker.

Without including Johnson I would call Hutchinson, Piette, Kaye, Osorio, Arfield, Davies, Hoilett, Millar and Chapman at midfield.

For what it's worth I would call Borjan, Leutwiler and Crepeau at keeper. 

And James, Henry, Adekugbe, De Jong, Jakovic, Aird, Petrasso and Vitoria at defence.

Not a bad looking 23 man roster.

 

Yeah not bad for a Final 23 especially if this is a roster you have going into the Gold Cup especially

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3 minutes ago, Tg11 said:

It is at least clear to me that right now at the moment most of the players don't believe in Herdman or what he is trying to sell which in term will create in fighting eventually unless Herdman decides to drop said players so then that way you avoid a France 2010 like situation.

What are you talking about here? Why would you think that. All we have heard are good comments from players. If any players are upset at what Herdman has said then that is their issue. 

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Just now, Ruffian said:

What are you talking about here? Why would you think that. All we have heard are good comments from players. If any players are upset at what Herdman has said then that is their issue. 

 

I would think that naturally because of the shots that Herdman took at a couple of players but he didn't really name names and not to mention airing your national team dirty laundry in public that is why I would think that even though comments I have heard have mostly been positive/good but there are some within the team who could be upset if you really think about it because they aren't playing for Canada because of the colors but more for themselves.

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1 minute ago, Tg11 said:

 

I would think that naturally because of the shots that Herdman took at a couple of players but he didn't really name names and not to mention airing your national team dirty laundry in public that is why I would think that even though comments I have heard have mostly been positive/good but there are some within the team who could be upset if you really think about it because they aren't playing for Canada because of the colors but more for themselves.

Word salad. (Donald, is that you?)

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If anybody's feelings are hurt by Herdman's comments then they do not deserve to be part of Canada's team. I hope they speak up so that Herman can identify them and either exclude them or address the issue and bring them into being a regular contributor to the program.

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13 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

If anybody's feelings are hurt by Herdman's comments then they do not deserve to be part of Canada's team. I hope they speak up so that Herman can identify them and either exclude them or address the issue and bring them into being a regular contributor to the program.

Oh I agree with that which is why I said to either drop those players to avoid an in fighting situation or if by addressing said issue if they are able to work out a compromise to avoid in fighting then that works too but if it were me I would drop said players because by doing that you send a strong message that you actually mean business as a manager and that you are really serious about what you are trying to accomplish with this team. All I am saying is that it would be a pretty bold move on Herdman's part if he were to do that especially if he is really serious about changing the culture here and wanting to turn this nation into a serious footballing nation on the come up.

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13 hours ago, red card said:

This in contrast to the women who view wearing the Canada shirt as the pinnacle. 

Because of the limited and economic rewards in women's soccer, that's environmental and comparing the two is apples and oranges.

Playing for country in women's soccer is a much larger incentive comparatively. If women were compensated like men on the club side or had as many career options, you would see similar viewpoints, or perhaps even lesser (but that is a can of worm's best left with the word "perhaps").

On any team, club or country, the manager's job is to get the optimum results. One of the biggest differentiators is man management, getting the best players on the field and getting the most out of each one.

Management-wise it's very easy to say "they're not motivated" and close doors because it's the easy road out and means you have 18 ass-kissing bodies on the bench. Dealing with the highly-talented edge cases and egos and bringing them on-board and into a framework that's not just functional but over-performing, that's skill and that's art.

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11 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Not very classy.....is this not something that could have been dealt with man to man and not in the press.  

 

57 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Well, to me Herdman has already lost half the team if he’s airing dirty laundry publicly. 

 

What utter bullshit. There is no "dirty laundry".

Any player that wants to be part of the program has to show their pride in playing for the team and you two think this is wrong somehow?!!?

 

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As much as I want players that bleed for the shirt, truth is we're not exactly in a position to be shunning talent. It took awhile for guys like Arfield and Hoilett to come on board. If it had been Herdman in charge back then, would he have passed on calling them because he didn't feel they were committed enough? And where would our midfield be then? 

Maybe if we had a deeper pool and our new coach was of a higher profile/pedigree then this could be done; the respect would be there and the "message" would get across. Fact is, our pool is shallow and Herdman has never coached a men's team before. I mean imagine you have a talent like Cristante on the fence and Herdman is hectoring him into "showing pride for the shirt" and committing to the program? Dude would probably turn around and say "I thought you were the women's coach?" before telling him to piss off. 

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13 hours ago, red card said:

Herdman specifically said there are some players he has talked to that have little pride in the Canada jersey. They simply look at only as a way to get noticed and move up in their career. He wants players that will not just drop the jersey on the floor in the dressing room. This pride in the jersey needs to built at the youth levels 12-15.

He also said the Euro based players & Piette's pride is clearly on display even when talking with them online, which implies it is MLS and North American based youth players are the ones who are more likely to be perfidious.

I think you are massively jumlbing his words. I too listened to that interview at the beginning of halftime and heard him make reference to players in the past.... Not that he spoke with them. 

He said he spoke with guys like Osorio and Piette, but never made mention of speaking with guys who had no pride. 

Crazy. Two pages of dialogue from broken telephone. 

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4 minutes ago, Kurt-MTL said:

As much as I want players that bleed for the shirt, truth is we're not exactly in a position to be shunning talent. It took awhile for guys like Arfield and Hoilett to come on board. If it had been Herdman in charge back then, would he have passed on calling them because he didn't feel they were committed enough? And where would our midfield be then? 

Maybe if we had a deeper pool and our new coach was of a higher profile/pedigree then this could be done; the respect would be there and the "message" would get across. Fact is, our pool is shallow and Herdman has never coached a men's team before. I mean imagine you have a talent like Cristante on the fence and Herdman is hectoring him into "showing pride for the shirt" and committing to the program? Dude would probably turn around and say "I thought you were the women's coach?" before telling him to piss off. 

 

Yeah but apparently we have a lot of talent breaking in especially if you look at youth level and not to mention with some of the talent we already have the pool of players lately is actually as better as what we have seen from Canada in recent years. However, yeah Herdman hasn't coached a men's team but if he brings in the same philosophy that he had with the women which brought them success and transitions that into the men's national team culture he can actually turn this national team around as far as the men goes.

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43 minutes ago, Kurt-MTL said:

As much as I want players that bleed for the shirt, truth is we're not exactly in a position to be shunning talent.

Gather round children, it's El Hombre story time: I play on a men's team.  By sheer talent alone, one guy is in the top two on our team.  Unfortunately, he has no idea how to play with anyone else and is constantly condescending and poor for morale.  The team is better when he is not around.  That is a fact.  Not a direct correlation, but hopefully illuminates the point that sheer talent alone does not win games.

With every game Canada plays, someone will compare the leagues our guys play in to the leagues that our opponents play in.  On the whole, a good argument can be (and usually is) made that "on paper, our team is better than theirs."  Yet, we end up losing more games than we should.  It is like someone else posted above: a lot of our Concacaf opponents have players that will bleed for their jersey.  We don't always see the same intensity.  For my money, a bandaged and bloodied Richard Hastings brought more to the 2007 Gold Cup success than most of our current players.  Was he the most talented central defender at our disposal at that time?  No.  But he led that team.  Almost to the finals.

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Great players are often conceited, egotistical, selfish, irresponsible, wreckless, idiots, etc. It's the fuel to their fire.

It's the job of the manager to manage that. If they can, everyone wins. If they can't, for either their limitations or the players, everyone loses.

The better the manager the better their ability to get the best players on the field operating at their best.

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3 hours ago, El Hombre said:

So:

1) Say something in an interview: "That's better dealt with man to man and not in the press.  Herdman out!"

2) Release a squad with little explanation: "Why is X missing?  He has no clue about selections!  Herdman out!"

Damned if he says something, damned if he says nothing.

Why hide it?  Put these guys on notice.  No one walks into this team any more.  If they don't really care, then this won't bother them.  If they do, this will light a fire.  Start by building a mentality of pride.

(All this to say: how many players will actually hear the highlights of an interview of a Can Champ game streamed only on canadasoccer.com).

 I have said that we have to let him have at least the cycle to try and implement the changes he wants to make (as with any system wide thing its will take years not months).  My point is there is enough questioning of motives, loyality etc from us fans without the coach publicly calling players out.  I guess I am old school and think you are probably creating more problems than you solve.  If he has doubts about players motivation to rep Canada I would hope that he had the conversation with them first and isnt relying on second hand stories etc.  I would have felt better if you praise the positive players (like he did) and then leave it at that.  Or if your going to say that at least tell us the guys he is talking about and there wont be speculation on who he was talking about.  it just brings a whole new set of "negative waves man" into the picture.  Maybe its his way of motivating guys but personally I dont care for it, and I dont like it when players do this stuff either.  

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In a similar vein, what Holger Osieck got right was finding a defensive counter-attacking system that enabled results to be obtained against more talented opponents and selecting only the players that fit that system rather than trying to make things work with the most talented 11 available. Richard Hastings and others like Tony Menezes and Carl Fletcher got a regular game when with other coaches they probably would not have been so much of a factor. Only problem was that even Osieck's favoured players eventually seemed to get fed up with it, but for a few years it worked well.

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2 hours ago, Bison44 said:

 I have said that we have to let him have at least the cycle to try and implement the changes he wants to make (as with any system wide thing its will take years not months).  My point is there is enough questioning of motives, loyality etc from us fans without the coach publicly calling players out.  I guess I am old school and think you are probably creating more problems than you solve.  If he has doubts about players motivation to rep Canada I would hope that he had the conversation with them first and isnt relying on second hand stories etc.  I would have felt better if you praise the positive players (like he did) and then leave it at that.  Or if your going to say that at least tell us the guys he is talking about and there wont be speculation on who he was talking about.  it just brings a whole new set of "negative waves man" into the picture.  Maybe its his way of motivating guys but personally I dont care for it, and I dont like it when players do this stuff either.  

So the problem is that either he shouldn't have called them out, or should have called them out more?

He essentially just said that players have to be willing to do their best. I'd love to see the dissenting opinions pop up.

Player who doesn't care at all: "Hey coach. You said you think we need players to play their best. I have a problem with that."
Herdman: "OK, so you disagree?"
Player who doesn't care at all: "I mean, yeah. Wouldn't it be better to let players not try their best sometimes? What's the problem with that?"

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Posted (edited)

Herdman never called out any player, he mentioned that some players aren’t passionate about wearing the jersey.

When thinking about this sentiment, one of the first things that comes to mind is Kevin McKenna saying at halftime “We have to stop the bleeding.” Not exactly passionate words from your captain. Maybe there’s been an apathy in the program that no one has cared about until now. 

Edited by BuzzAndSting

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3 hours ago, Kent said:

So the problem is that either he shouldn't have called them out, or should have called them out more?

He essentially just said that players have to be willing to do their best. I'd love to see the dissenting opinions pop up.

Player who doesn't care at all: "Hey coach. You said you think we need players to play their best. I have a problem with that."
Herdman: "OK, so you disagree?"
Player who doesn't care at all: "I mean, yeah. Wouldn't it be better to let players not try their best sometimes? What's the problem with that?"

We were talking about him questioning the motives of players..the ones that are only there to further their carer and didnt care about canada.   Not getting them to play their best like a coach of a tim bits 5 and under team.  

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1 hour ago, The Ref said:

Once Herdman wins something significant, players will be interested and committed.  His empty words and promises won't cut it.

 

 

And what he has been saying has been nothing but fluff but at the end of the day what matters is getting results and the Nations League will be evidence of whether or not to believe in Herdman as a manager

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Sean Fleming says that Coaching education is the key to getting Canada back to FIFA World Cup.  

As much as this is true I firmly believe that natural talent and athleticism of players is just as true or maybe even more so than a key to coaching education.  How many of past and present great players were made what they are by coaches or just arrived into the world of soccer with natural talent they grew up with since their early years.

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4 hours ago, Bison44 said:

We were talking about him questioning the motives of players..the ones that are only there to further their carer and didnt care about canada.   Not getting them to play their best like a coach of a tim bits 5 and under team.  

I would argue that playing your best would include answering the call when it comes, and doing everything you can to help the team win, including trying to carry out the coach’s plan like a professional. If you are doing those things Herdman probably doesn’t care a whole lot if you are doing it for the maple leaf or for the money

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